Random question


#1

First off, I do not endorse or am partaking in the following scenario. I do not know anyone that is either. Just one of those questions that crosses the mind.

The Church considers one to be married to their first spouse until an annulment is obtained. So my question is, if a person were to divorce and remarry outside of the church, would relations with the first spouse constitute fornication and/or adultery?

If a person were just to simply divorce and not get an annulment, would relations with the former spouse be fornication?

I know this is a silly question, I just was wondering how The Church viewed this.


#2

[quote="Sooner87, post:1, topic:329333"]
The Church considers one to be married to their first spouse until an annulment is obtained. So my question is, if a person were to divorce and remarry outside of the church, would relations with the first spouse constitute fornication and/or adultery?

If a person were just to simply divorce and not get an annulment, would relations with the former spouse be fornication?

[/quote]

"Getting married" to a second person after "divorcing" your spouse to whom you are actually, presumably, still married and then having sex with that "first" spouse would not be sinful, no. However, I can see how it might be emotionally abusive to your "second" spouse, to whom you are "married to" now as far as the state is concerned. That emotional trauma might be sinful. Others, please chime in.

See, there is no "former" spouse technically unless an annulment is granted. I know you probably realize that, but it's confusing terminology.

And please remember that an annulment and a divorce are not the same thing. Again, I know you probably know that, but anyway.


#3

Oh I do. I completely understand it all (in the middle of the annulment process as we speak).


#4

If you are not married in the Catholic Church there is no annulment, because there is no marriage.
Neither to the first nor to the second "spouse"

[quote="Sooner87, post:3, topic:329333"]
Oh I do. I completely understand it all (in the middle of the annulment process as we speak).

Join Date: January 8, 2013
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 17
Religion: Soon to start RCIA

[/quote]

If you are just entering RCIA, how can you be in a process of "annulment"?


#5

[quote="inflight, post:4, topic:329333"]
If you are not married in the Catholic Church there is no annulment, because there is no marriage.
Neither to the first one nor to the second "spouse"

If you are just entering RCIA, how can you be in a process of "annulment"?

[/quote]

This is not true. Protestants can validly and sacramentally marry, so can Orthodox, so can Anglicans, and non-Christians can validly marry.


#6

"Fornication" is only a sin that occurs outside of a good-faith attempt at marriage.

If two people do not realize that they are in a defective (invalid) marriage, then there is no mortal sin. There is still spiritual harm, however. If only one party is aware of the defect, the innocent spouse is still not guilty of mortal sin.

For instance, a Catholic who marries a Protestant at an unapproved Protestant ceremony would likely be aware he is committing a sin. The Protestant spouse, however, may be thoroughly unaware her fiance is even technically Catholic. She would be blameless, while her husband's blameworthiness would be based on his understanding of appropriate Canon Law.


#7

[quote="inflight, post:4, topic:329333"]
If you are not married in the Catholic Church there is no annulment, because there is no marriage.
Neither to the first nor to the second "spouse"

If you are just entering RCIA, how can you be in a process of "annulment"?

[/quote]

As YoungTradCath stated, this is completely false.

The Church recognizes all marriage as valid regardless of belief, even an athiest's marriage is sacramental according to The Church.


#8

[quote="runningdude, post:6, topic:329333"]
"Fornication" is only a sin that occurs outside of a good-faith attempt at marriage.

If two people do not realize that they are in a defective (invalid) marriage, then there is no mortal sin. There is still spiritual harm, however. If only one party is aware of the defect, the innocent spouse is still not guilty of mortal sin.

For instance, a Catholic who marries a Protestant at an unapproved Protestant ceremony would likely be aware he is committing a sin. The Protestant spouse, however, may be thoroughly unaware her fiance is even technically Catholic. She would be blameless, while her husband's blameworthiness would be based on his understanding of appropriate Canon Law.

[/quote]

That makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought of it that way.


#9

[quote="Sooner87, post:7, topic:329333"]
As YoungTradCath stated, this is completely false.

The Church recognizes all marriage as valid regardless of belief, even an athiest's marriage is sacramental according to The Church.

[/quote]

Not sacramental, but valid.

Christians marry validly and sacramentally.

Non-Christians marry validly.

A Christian and a non-Christian marry validly.


#10

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:9, topic:329333"]
Not sacramental, but valid.

Christians marry validly and sacramentally.

Non-Christians marry validly.

A Christian and a non-Christian marry validly.

[/quote]

I misunderstood then. Thank you for clearing that up for me. :)


#11

[quote="Sooner87, post:10, topic:329333"]
I misunderstood then. Thank you for clearing that up for me. :)

[/quote]

No problem. From the very beginning marriage existed. Adam and Eve were married. Pre-Christian Jews were married. Pre-Christian non-Jews were married. When Jesus came, he simply raised marriage in dignity to a sacrament, but he did not abolish non-sacramental marriage.


#12

what is false? if you have only civil marriage and have never been married in Church - it is not marriage by Church’s eyes


#13

of course it is true. Catholic Church does not recognize the marriage done outside the Catholic Church.
And it can not issue an annulment for a marriage in Protestant or Orthodox Church, nor should - both protestants and orthodox recognize divorce.It is not Catholic Church’s jurisdiction to annul marriage outside Catholic Church


#14

[quote="inflight, post:13, topic:329333"]
of course it is true. Catholic Church does not recognize the marriage done outside the Catholic Church.

[/quote]

I'm afraid you're mistaken. The Catholic Church does not recognize the marriages of those done outside the Catholic Church FOR CATHOLICS.

Non-Catholics have marriages recognized by the Church that are done according to their status. In other words, Jews married in the Jewish fashion are validly married according to the Catholic Church. Baptists married in the Baptist fashion are married validly. Etc. Those who are Baptized in the name of the Trinity, but who are not Catholic, and are married according to their tradition, are not only considered validly married but Sacramentally as well.


#15

[quote="inflight, post:13, topic:329333"]
of course it is true. Catholic Church does not recognize the marriage done outside the Catholic Church.
And it can not issue an annulment for a marriage in Protestant or Orthodox Church, nor should - both protestants and orthodox recognize divorce.It is not Catholic Church's jurisdiction to annul marriage outside Catholic Church

[/quote]

You are incorrect in most of this. The Church does actually recognize the fact that marriage can and does exist outside of the Catholic Church, even Sacramental marriage at least for Christians.

Furthermore, no, Catholic priests do not run around inquiring to Protestants whether they might want an annulment. Nor will a Catholic priest begin the process if Suzy and Joe Protestant come asking him for one.

However, if a non-Catholic couple desire to become Catholic and, say, the baptized woman was married before to a baptized man, she must obtain an annulment of the "non-Catholic marriage" before the current marriage can be convalidated.

To refer again to your first point, you are halfway right. The Church does not recognize marriages outside the Church if, say, a Catholic couple go down to the local megachurch for a wedding, but the church does quite actually recognize marriage between say two baptized Presbyterians as valid and sacramental.


#16

This is incorrect. Say you have two atheists. They can certainly be validly (but not Sacramentally) married, and the Church acknowledges this.


#17

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#18

[quote="Rence, post:14, topic:329333"]
I'm afraid you're mistaken. The Catholic Church does not recognize the marriages of those done outside the Catholic Church FOR CATHOLICS.

Non-Catholics have marriages recognized by the Church that are done according to their status. In other words, Jews married in the Jewish fashion are validly married according to the Catholic Church. Baptists married in the Baptist fashion are married validly. Etc. Those who are Baptized in the name of the Trinity, but who are not Catholic, and are married according to their tradition, are not only considered validly married but Sacramentally as well.

[/quote]

But the person in question is Catholic, or becoming one.

My point was - how can you request an annulment by Catholic Church for the marriage which was not conducted by Catholic Church?
Because that is how I understand the situation described.
If that is not the issue - my bad, sorry for confusion :blush:


#19

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:15, topic:329333"]
You are incorrect in most of this. The Church does actually recognize the fact that marriage can and does exist outside of the Catholic Church, even Sacramental marriage at least for Christians.

Furthermore, no, Catholic priests do not run around inquiring to Protestants whether they might want an annulment. Nor will a Catholic priest begin the process if Suzy and Joe Protestant come asking him for one.

However, if a non-Catholic couple desire to become Catholic and, say, the baptized woman was married before to a baptized man, she must obtain an annulment of the "non-Catholic marriage" before the current marriage can be convalidated.

To refer again to your first point, you are halfway right. The Church does not recognize marriages outside the Church if, say, a Catholic couple go down to the local megachurch for a wedding, but the church does quite actually recognize marriage between say two baptized Presbyterians as valid and sacramental.

[/quote]

Annulement by WHOM? Catholic Church does not have jurisdiction over the marriages conducted outside the Catholic Church.

I was not considering a Jewish marriage invalid, or Protestant, or whatever. For Jews, Protestants, or else. But not for a Catholic marrying there. still I can't see how Catholic Church can issue an annulment for a Protestant who wants to become a Catholic and marry a Catholic girl when he has been divorced from his Protestant wife years ago and his Protestant church does not consider him still married and does not issue annulments - they recognize divorces.


#20

The church can not issue an annulment to something it does not have jurisdiction over.


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