Rape can never be justified, yet an alarming number of Europeans think it can


#1

World Economic Forum (WEForum): "It is impossible to justify an act as heinous as rape. All too often, though, that’s exactly what people try to do, pointing the finger at victims – the clothes they had on, the make-up they were wearing, the signals they sent, the alcohol they had consumed.

While we might like to think these attitudes are limited to a small, unenlightened group of people, recent research suggests they are shockingly widespread.

As part of a European Commission report on gender-based violence, 30,000 EU citizens were asked whether they thought sex without consent was acceptable in certain circumstances, such as when a woman is wearing “revealing” clothing. Over a quarter of respondents said they thought it was.

The report also found that over 10% of respondents thought sex without consent could potentially be justified if the victim had voluntarily gone home with the aggressor, was wearing “provocative, revealing or sexy” clothing, or if they had somehow not said no clearly enough.

Respondents in Romania and Hungary were consistently more likely to say that each situation could be a justification for sex without consent. In the UK, 22% of respondents said rape was acceptable in some circumstances, and 12% said excessive drink or drug intake could make non-consensual sex acceptable.

Respondents in Spain and Sweden were among the least likely to say rape could ever be justified.

“The only thing that causes rape is rapists”, sexual assault awareness campaigner Annie Clark once said. These shocking results show how much work still needs to be done for people to realize that."

weforum.org/agenda/2017/02/rape-sexual-assault-european-union?utm_content=buffere0d35&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


#2

It is true that the behaviour of a woman may serve to increase her risk of rape, just as walking down a dark alley is riskier than walking down a well-lit main street. However this does nothing to lesson the wrongfulness of the actions of the perpetrator, or make it somehow excusable or justifiable.

As part of a European Commission report on gender-based violence, 30,000 EU citizens were asked whether they thought sex without consent was acceptable in certain circumstances, such as when a woman is wearing “revealing” clothing. Over a quarter of respondents said they thought it was.

Incomprehensible.

The report also found that over 10% of respondents thought sex **without consent **could potentially be justified if the victim had voluntarily gone home with the aggressor, was wearing “provocative, revealing or sexy” clothing, or if they had somehow not said no clearly enough.

The very last part of that muddies the waters somewhat. I can imagine the events leading up to the “act” might be interpreted as “encouraging signals”, but I fail to understand how protestations at the end could then be judged “not clear enough”. I imagine a woman being raped (date rate scenario it seems) would be quite clear enough in resisting and I don’t understand what “not clear enough” could mean.


#3

An example could be where a woman says she is uncomfortable and not sure she wants to have sex. She may be at the guy’s house and doesn’t want to annoy him, so when he keeps nagging she acquiesces even though she really doesn’t want to do it.

Basically anything other than a definitive yes I’m totally up for this and I’m sober should be considered no.


#4

Unless she is a child or other vulnerable person, what you have described does not sound like rape to me at all, at least not without more than you put there. If someone says yes despite being uncrmfotable, that is poor decision-making, assuming it is not a marriage, not rape. Rape is non-consensual sex. Its not doing things you dont really want to do for other reasons (like not wanting to annoy your host).

I imagine a couple thats had sex before, like a married couple, where a husband may “pester” the wife for sex. Women say yes all the time even though they would rather sleep or do something else. If we start calling that rape, that could potentially lead to some knotty issues.

If your host has other pressures on them, like some form of hostility that implies threats, that is a different matter. If a person is placed in a situation where they feel they MUST have sex in order to keep some harm to themselves from happening, that would be rape. But if they just want to please the host, maybe they have poor self esteem and cant say no to anyone, that is not rape. They probably say yes to many other situations that they dont really want. It may be immoral for someone to take advantage of another like that, but I dont think it is rape.


#5

And that’s why the percentages are so high in those surveys. Because people don’t think that the scenario described above counts as rape. Pretty sure it’s considered rape by the people who were conducting the survey.

In my opinion, it is fair to consider it rape. Especially if you don’t really know the person you are with. You might think you are just gently encouraging but she might feel pressured and afraid. Or rather, while you may not intend to rape, you could still be charged for it.


#6

I honestly doubt that facts being clear about what happened, and the woman not later claiming that she never actually consented, that a fair court would convict of rape. Taking advantage of a drunk or unconcious person is one thing, it is clearly rape. But getting a woman to say yes even if she makes a bad decision, is immoral but I do not see that it is rape. Especially in the West with its protections, I think it is putting too much in the initiator of sex to make sure that their partner is “Happy with their decision to have sex” and anything short of that is consideres rape. Women should be treated like adults who can make decisions for themselves.

A pushy salesman may get me to buy something I dont really want and cause me to foolishly spend my rent money on it. I may immediately regret my decision. I may do it not to say no to them (maybe they are a very cute woman and I am a foolish young man with raging hormones) and she takes advantage of that in her sales tactics. I consider that immoral, but illegal? Convincing someone to do something without coercing them to do it, is not illegal unless the activity is per se illegal or the person has no capacity to fully consent to the situation like children, mentally ill folk, drunk folk and people like that. I dont think men are the only people who should be treated like adults when the issue becomes sex.


#7

There is rarely a “yes” for consensual sex - rather simply behaviour (between competent adults) that leads in a certain direction and is not resisted (verbally or physically). I think it’s difficult to categorize the events you described as rape. Can you see a court convicting?


#8

Your earlier scenario reflected no objective basis to presume initimidation, fear etc.

While no means no, “acquiescing to gentle encouragement” is not reasonably deemed rape. That sounds more like a poor decision.


#9

Definitely. This can not be emphasized enough.


#10

I was just answering a question on what “not saying no clearly enough” meant. Since I am fairly sure that the people who carried out the survey will take a “yes means yes” approach to sexual relations.

Pressuring someone to have sex with you when they are showing reluctance is never OK. Like I said, assuming this is a person that you don’t really know and that doesn’t know you, you have no idea what is going through their head at the time. What the guy might deem as gentle encouragement may be perceived as hostile by this girl he barely knows.

While I don’t know of any states / countries that have “yes means yes” laws, it is enforced on many university campuses. So, my scenario could get a guy expelled from uni at least. Probably in time it will work its way into the mainstream legal system. No idea how it would be enforced, but if it meant that people were forced to have less selfish attitudes about sex and judges were more confident about passing down harsh sentences to real rapists, then I would be all for it.

Another potential example of what “not saying no clearly enough” could be is if, during sex, the woman finds it painful and wants to stop. While not the same as violent rape, a woman would be left feeling severely violated if she found it painful and the man refused to stop until he finished.


#11

The wisdom of “yes means yes” policies aside, we should all be very afraid if somehow that made it into the criminal justice system, I don’t care what your political leanings are. It would be unconstitutional and shot down by the courts as such. And if somehow in this crazy future it wasn’t, I’d probably start looking for a new country.

The presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of any fair justice system, and is even included in the U.N. Deceleration of Human Rights. Putting the onus on the accused to establish innocence instead of the state to prove guilt is just dangerous, and in a free society, outlandish.

And no, being pressured into sex is not rape.:rolleyes:. It’s a learning experience about where your boundaries are and how to guard and enforce them.


#12

I dont see this kind of thing as rape either, like you said, there is never an actual ‘yes’ when sex is consensual, speaking from experience when I was younger and sowing my wild oats, behavior is doing the talking during this stage, If one of the two people are not comfortable and do not want to go all the way, their behavior will reflect that.


#13

Gen 18:20Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. 23Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing – to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


#14

???

I’m confused…


#15

What happened to the Catholic teaching of sex being reserved for marriage?

Now we are discussing when rape is acceptable.

We are back in pagan Rome.

Perhaps we need just to resist the beast that asks us to think in such ways?


#16

Exactly. I’m guessing ShrodingersCat meant something like where say two people are kissing and one of them starts to “progress” things, and the other stops it, but the other sweettalks them back into it and they go like “OK” against their better judgment. I personally would think the guy not a gentleman at all but would never convict him of rape.

Excellent point. Had not thought about it. Nobody wants a system of presumption of guilt no matter how vile the action involved. I also think it is unfair to treat only men as fully competent decision-makers in sex but women as somehow half-competent. If a lady convinced a guy to go to bed against his better judgment, he would be laughed out of town if he tried to claim that she had raped him by getting him to agree to sleep with her.

And no, being pressured into sex is not rape.:rolleyes:. It’s a learning experience about where your boundaries are and how to guard and enforce them.

:thumbsup:


#17

Presumption of innocence has been gone for a long time now though, especially when it comes to rape or other sex crimes, once someone is even accused, they are viewed as guilty by most people, even if they are later cleared, there will still be some that think of them as criminals. This goes for just about every type crime though.

There is also a huge difference in how they are treated and viewed, depending on whether its a male or female who is being accused.


#18

Its not really about whether rape is acceptable but about what rape is and what should be penalized as rape by the criminal system.

I think it is very immoral to pressure someone into sex, leave alone the matter of sex outside marriage. But it is not rape.

I take rape very seriously and believe it should have a zero tolerance policy attached to it all around. A rapist is someone who forces himself onto someone who refuses to have sex with them. It is an act of violence and deeply destructive to its victims. It should carry extreme consequences for the perpetrators. I think we should be careful about placing that label on persons who dont carry out any violence. If all that it would take to prevent or stop the sex is a firm and persistent No, there is no rape.


#19

You think this is bad, look at the statistics for US colleges, they are pretty much the same if not worse. Now I wish I had saved the study, but I’m sure it is easy enough to find. This is not simply a European problem, our youth are going through the same thing and thinking the same way.

What’s at least as terrifying is the statistics of those who consent to pre marital sex. The average college student admits to having a one night stand 7 times by their senior year. That’s not just pre marital sex that’s sex without even knowing the person or being in a relationship with them.

Scary!!!

Maybe something to pray about during this lent season…


#20

For consideration :

The Truth About Sex: Facts You Won’t Believe Are True!


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