Rapture: Catholic yes or no?


#1

I recently learned that the idea of rapture (or the good people leaving the earth before the trials and tribulations) wasn’t created until the renaissonce ( i don’t know about that spelling it’s late :slight_smile: ). So do Catholics believe in this, and if so why? Are there verses to back this claim?


#2

…more like the late 1800’s is when it was dreamed up.

Peace:thumbsup:

http://mediasoftware.free.fr/index.1.jpg

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0087.html


#3

Actually, I believe that the Catholic Church teaches the opposite – the bad guys will be taken away, leaving the good to live with Christ during the Millenium.

I’ve never accepted the rapture as truth/fact, and I never will.


#4

[quote=AsStAnselmPrays]Actually, I believe that the Catholic Church teaches the opposite – the bad guys will be taken away, leaving the good to live with Christ during the Millenium.

I’ve never accepted the rapture as truth/fact, and I never will.
[/quote]

Go to www.bcs.com (bible christian society) and order (for free) John Martignoni’s cd on The Rapture. It is excellent and it explains the Catholic teaching on this subject very well and compares it to the numerous rapture variations taught by different churches.


#5

[quote=Elzee]Go to www.bcs.com (bible christian society) and order (for free) John Martignoni’s cd on The Rapture. It is excellent and it explains the Catholic teaching on this subject very well and compares it to the numerous rapture variations taught by different churches.
[/quote]

Would you be able to give us a quick synopsis?
JOL


#6

Space Ghost:

…more like the late 1800’s is when it was dreamed up.

Even better :slight_smile:

Actually, I believe that the Catholic Church teaches the opposite – the bad guys will be taken away, leaving the good to live with Christ during the Millenium

Hmmm I seem to recall something about suffering and death…A whore of babylon and some horsemen I believe …is this the milenium with Christ of which you spoke? If so seems kinda scarey for an all loving guy.

Why WOULD anyone believe this? I can just speculate random **** that doesn’t appear in the texts, would that make it true? Why would so many people believe this non-sense? Is it maybe because that is what they WANT to believe? So the answer is NO, Catholics do not believe in this then?


#7

The Catholic position would be like this: we are now living in the “millenium” which is the Church age, the beginning and promise of the fulfilled Kingdom of God (millenium means “thousand” a highly symbolic number in Scripture which means a long, but indefinite, time). When the fullness of time comes, there will be:

  1. A period of tribulation before the end.
  2. Christ’s Second Coming at which time those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (the equivalent of what dispensationalists would call “the rapture”)
  3. The General Judgment at which time all mankind will be judged and be sent to their eternal reward-either heaven or hell.
  4. Eternity.

The Catechism says this:

The Church’s ultimate trial
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

When each of us dies, our souls are immediately taken to the presence of God and judged. This is called the Particular Judgment. At this point we begin our eternal destiny. If we are are going to hell, our souls go directly there. If we are deemed worthy of heaven, our souls will go directly to heaven, or if we are going to heaven but are in need of purification, we may go to Purgatory first (everyone in Purgatory will eventually go to heaven). Whatever our fate, our souls will stay there until the end of time.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (what some Protestants call the Rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all.

After this, time and Purgatory will be no more and all will enter with their souls and bodies into their eternal destiny, either hell or heaven.

The Church has condemned the type of Rapture scenario promoted by Hal Lindsay and the “Left Behind” folks. A 1944 pronouncement of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome clarifies the Church’s position:

In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.

This is an extremely bare-bones sketch, so if you want to get the details, see the four articles and the website linked below:

rosary-center.org/ll57n1.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n2.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n3.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n4.htm
www.carl-olsen.com


#8

[quote=JOL]Would you be able to give us a quick synopsis?
JOL
[/quote]

I guess that would have been a good idea! Sorry!
I won’t do Mr. Martignoni justice because his cd is very good, but here is a summary. I listened to the cd again just now to make sure I paraphrase him correctly, so hopefully I’ve got this pretty accurate:

First, he gives a ‘typical’ rapture theory: (he points out there are dozens of variations, but this is a very common one:)

  1. At some point Jesus will rapture all believers to heaven.
  2. The 7 year Tribulation will begin for all those left on earth. Wars, famine, false prophets, etc.
  3. In the middle of the Tribulation, the anti-christ will be revealed and he will come to power over all the earth. This 3.5 years are much worse than the first.
  4. At the end of the 7 year tribulation Jesus returns to earth again, the battle of Armageddon is fought and the anitchrist is thrown into hell.
  5. Jesus then establishes a 1000 year physical reign on earth with his saints.
  6. After 1000 years, Satan is let free from hell, gathers armies from all over the world and wages war on the saints. But, he and his army are destroyed by fire from heaven and sent to hell forever.
  7. After this, there is a final resurrection of the dead, final judgement, and the end of the world as we know it.

**He summarizes Catholic theology in regard to all this: **
[list]
*]We do not believe in a rapture of all believers that occurs at any time other than at the second and final coming of Christ. Christ will return only once and that will occur at the end of time.
*]We also do not believe in a physical 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after the tribulation.
[/list] The Church teaches this:

  1. There will be a tribulation that occurs before the end of time and before the return of Christ. But the members of the church will be here to experience it and suffer persecution with everyone else. We are not ‘raptured’ away from the suffering. During this time many members will be led astray by the false teachings of the anitchrist. (CCC 675-677)
  2. There will be a mass conversion of the Jews back to Christ (CCC 674). This may occur before or during the tribulation - it seems there are not specifics on the timing.
  3. At the end of the tribulation, Christ returns in power and glory (his second and final cooming) and wins victory over the ‘final unleashing of evil’ (CCC 677). Evil is defeated forever.
  4. The dead are resurrected (CCC 988 and others). Final judgement occurs. Good enter eternal kingdom and wicked enter eternal damnation. The old heaven and earth are replaced by the new heaven and earth as the New Jerusalem. The righteous reign forever with Chrst. (CCC 1042 - 1050).

He then goes on to give Scripture backing for the Catholic theology and does a great job proving how the rapture theology tradition is just not compatible with the bible.

I hope this helps. I can try to give you some of the Scripture backing later but I need to run now ! Perhaps someone else can jump in…


#9

Just a note: The Bible Christian Society is not at bcs.com/ but at biblechristiansociety.com/


#10

[quote=jpusateri]Just a note: The Bible Christian Society is not at bcs.com/ but at biblechristiansociety.com/
[/quote]

oops -sorry! thank you!


#11

[quote=Wormwood]I recently learned that the idea of rapture (or the good people leaving the earth before the trials and tribulations) wasn’t created until the renaissonce ( i don’t know about that spelling it’s late :slight_smile: ). So do Catholics believe in this, and if so why? Are there verses to back this claim?
[/quote]

Actually, it wasn’t until the 19th century. No, Catholics do not believe in this false, man made, teaching.


#12

I’m just wrapping up a GREAT book on that very subject – The Rapture Trap by Dr. Thigpen. It is an excellent read, and includes one of the best synopsis of the Christian faith that I have ever read.

The Catholic Church does teach that something like the “rapture” will occur, but as previous posters said, it will come immediately prior to, or at, the Second (and final) Coming of Christ. Living Christians united to Christ will be “caught up” and join Christ as He enters the world in triumph over the forces of evil. This imagery parallels the common practice during Biblical times of people going out of a city to welcome a dignitary (think Palm Sunday). In just the same way, Christians will “go out” to honor Christ as He returns again.

The idea that there will be a “secret rapture” that will allow Christians to escape the persecutions of the Tribulation necessitates that Christ come three times – which is anti-biblical and opposed not only by Catholics, but several mainline protestant denominations as well.

But you should definitely read the book – it is a treasure!

Peace,
javelin


#13

[quote=AsStAnselmPrays]Actually, I believe that the Catholic Church teaches the opposite – the bad guys will be taken away, leaving the good to live with Christ during the Millenium.

[/quote]

As has been said, the Church does NOT teach that Christ will physically reign on the Earth after the Second Coming for “the millenium”. In fact, the Church specifically denies this, as Fidelis accurately quoted from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.

Peace,
javelin


#14

[quote=Wormwood]Space Ghost: Even better :slight_smile:

Hmmm I seem to recall something about suffering and death…A whore of babylon and some horsemen I believe …is this the milenium with Christ of which you spoke? If so seems kinda scarey for an all loving guy.

Why WOULD anyone believe this? I can just speculate random **** that doesn’t appear in the texts, would that make it true? Why would so many people believe this non-sense? Is it maybe because that is what they WANT to believe? So the answer is NO, Catholics do not believe in this then?
[/quote]

Because it seems to be taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, among other passages.

People are only following what the Bible appears to be saying - and as for it’s being “nonsense”, what could be more nonsensical than the Christian claims about Christ ? To believe such things, one needs a sense of humour :slight_smile:

As for the Love of Christ, it’s real - and it can be very terrible. It’s not milk-and-watery, not at all. It can be very severe - but it is always the best thing for us. God is not Great-grandfather-in-Heaven, so “scary” that “Heaven and earth flee way from [His] Presence…”

Pictures which make Jesus Christ look like a consumptive girl have a lot to answer for. This is how Jesus Christ is described in Revelation 1:

[list]
*]Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
*]Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
*]Rev 1:9 I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
*]Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
*]Rev 1:11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Per’gamum and to Thyati’ra and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to La-odice’a.”
*]Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
*]Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast;
*]Rev 1:14 his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire,
*]Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters;
*]Rev 1:16 in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
*]Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
*]Rev 1:18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
*]Rev 1:19 Now write what you see, what is and what is to take place hereafter.
*]Rev 1:20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
[/list] And there is this:
[list]
*]Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals…
*]Rev 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
*]Rev 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
*]Rev 6:14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
*]Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
*]Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
*]Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it ?”
[/list]There is no contradiction between the Love of Christ for all men, and the severity and fearsomeness of His Judgements; because they are always holy and righteous, which His Love is.

As for the other things you mention, they are in the same book. Happy reading ! ##


#15

People are only following what the Bible appears to be saying

So it is admittedly just an interpretation? Because I never see it explicitly say that anyone will be spared any of the bad circumstances.

Pictures which make Jesus Christ look like a consumptive girl have a lot to answer for. This is how Jesus Christ is described in Revelation 1:

Don’t you find revelation very suspect? It was written by a man who was deemed too insane to live within society, and if it is anything like most of John’s other writings it was anti-rome (the city, not the church). Seems strange to put more faith in a book written 60 years after Christ died, than you do in the books describing his actions and words that he actually did commit.

As for everyone else…I am getting a lot of mixed signals here…is this a catholic belief or not…come to a consensus, and get back to me.


#16

[quote=Wormwood]So it is admittedly just an interpretation? Because I never see it explicitly say that anyone will be spared any of the bad circumstances.
[/quote]

I personally think the Rapture is very–what’s the word I want–Euro-centric/Ameri-centric…anyway, you get what I mean.

The whole point of the rapture is that good Christians will be spared suffering.

Those of us who live on easy street are going to be raptured away when things get tough, but the Christians suffering unbelievable persecution in the Sudan as we speak (or all the Christians who have suffered over the centuries for that matter) are being left in their condition ? Give me a break.

The Parousia (sp?) is basically the traditional understanding of the rapture and it happens at the very end along with judgement.


#17

[quote=Wormwood]Don’t you find revelation very suspect? It was written by a man who was deemed too insane to live within society, and if it is anything like most of John’s other writings it was anti-rome (the city, not the church). Seems strange to put more faith in a book written 60 years after Christ died, than you do in the books describing his actions and words that he actually did commit.

As for everyone else…I am getting a lot of mixed signals here…is this a catholic belief or not…come to a consensus, and get back to me.
[/quote]

There’s no real official interpretation one must hold of Revelation–except that the “Millenium” is now (or possibly that it has ended and Satan is being slowly unloosed as the Church enters into its final trial). The word translated as millenium simply means a long time. The Millenium is the Church age. Christ is ruling from Heaven with His vicar on earth here in the person of the pope.

This means that the majority of Revelation is probably talking about Pagan Rome and/or Apostate Jerusalem, with a little bit discussing the distant future. Here are two good articles.
catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp
catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp


#18

Here’s a good link on the Parousia:

catholicapologetics.org/ap090500.htm


#19

[quote=Wormwood]So it is admittedly just an interpretation? Because I never see it explicitly say that anyone will be spared any of the bad circumstances.
[/quote]

You are correct: the Bible NEVER says anyone will be spared the Tribulation. That aspect of the secret rapture doctrine is patently false and refuted by Catholic doctrine.

[quote=Wormwood]Don’t you find revelation very suspect? It was written by a man who was deemed too insane to live within society, and if it is anything like most of John’s other writings it was anti-rome (the city, not the church). Seems strange to put more faith in a book written 60 years after Christ died, than you do in the books describing his actions and words that he actually did commit.
[/quote]

How could anyone consider Revelation “suspect”?!? It doesn’t really matter *who *the human author was since it is Inspired by God Himself. It can be no more suspect than the Gospel of Matthew or Acts.

Besides, no one here has said they weigh Revelation more heavily than other inspired writings.

[quote=Wormwood]As for everyone else…I am getting a lot of mixed signals here…is this a catholic belief or not…come to a consensus, and get back to me.
[/quote]

Where are the mixed signals??

SpaceGhost, Elzee, Fidelis, Ignatius, Genesis315, and myself all clearly said that “rapture, tribulation, Second Coming” (the order of the “Secret Rapture” doctrine) is NOT Catholic teaching; more specifically, that doctrine contradicts Catholic teaching.

Catholic teaching (see Fidelis’ posts again) is, in order, millenium, tribulation, rapture immediately followed by (or in conjunction with) the Second Coming. This is the Biblical portrait created combining all of the text that refers to Christ’s Second Coming, and has been taught for centuries upon centuries, by protestants and Catholics both.

Only AsStAnselmPrays posted something seemingly out of step with Church teaching, which you responded to, and then Gottle of Geer responded to you. I don’t think anything in his post actually supported the secret rapture doctrine.

So rest assured.

Peace,
javelin

P.S. Just go and read “The Rapture Trap”. You’ll find all the answers there. The author specifically talks about the evolution and origins of the false doctrine, and reasons why it has become popular in fundamentalist circles.


#20

Genesis315

Those of us who live on easy street are going to be raptured away when things get tough, but the Christians suffering unbelievable persecution in the Sudan as we speak (or all the Christians who have suffered over the centuries for that matter) are being left in their condition ? Give me a break.

Wow Genesis315, I can’t believe I finally got one “right” from the get go…and that YOU were the one to drive it home. Rapture makes NO sense in accordance with every other thing that happens biblically…the other accounts of the “day of the lord” from OT, or the lives of anyone after adam whose lives pretty muched sucked in some respect or another…at least for a while. I don’t see why the most indulgent and decadent generations in the history of civilization would profess a doctrine that they will be spared suffering… people got turned to salt for looking back, and sold to egyptians by their own brothers, and let’s not forget poor Esau, and they think they will just be whisked away and avoid all suffering…doesn’t seem to fit God’s *M.O. *
If all the christians ARE suddenly whisked to heaven, I bet it will be horrible in some respect…pillars of flame or earth enveloping floods, etc. Not the subject of self righteous bumper stickers to say the least.

This means that the majority of Revelation is probably talking about Pagan Rome and/or Apostate Jerusalem, with a little bit discussing the distant future. Here are two good articles.

OMG!! I am two for two. Who is this really? Can’t be the REAL Genesis315… :wink:

javelin
How could anyone consider Revelation “suspect”?!?

Easily…have you ever read that thing? I almost thought this first line was sarcastic before I read the rest of your post.

It doesn’t really matter *who *the human author was since it is Inspired by God Himself

Also suspect. And that fact that he was crazy certainly doesn’t help it’s validity…so “who” does matter at least a little bit.

It can be no more suspect than the Gospel of Matthew or Acts

Which could coincidentally be considered suspect also. At least Matt had the benefit of knowing things first hand and his teachings were consistant with writings outside of his own.

.

Where are the mixed signals??

SpaceGhost, Elzee, Fidelis, Ignatius, Genesis315, and myself all clearly said that “rapture, tribulation, Second Coming” (the order of the “Secret Rapture” doctrine) is NOT Catholic teaching

Because others were saying, for example, that it appears in thesselonians…and other statements that indicated that one side was misinformed.

So rest assured.

Peace,
javelin

Well I can now…I won’t have to add you guys to “the list” just yet :wink:


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