Re-enchanting the mass

Ran across an interesting article today, below is a quote:

In a recent interview, Cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, notes the decline of Eucharistic faith in the Catholic Church. Apparently this was a matter of some discussion at the synod at Rome in October. The bishops are concerned that many Catholics no longer believe that Christ Jesus is really and truly present under the sacramental species.

A growing number of Catholics appear to be embracing “a more Protestant concept of the Eucharist, seeing it mainly as a symbol”. A proposed solution is to encourage parish priests to teach the Eucharist from the pulpit. I’m sure this would be a good thing, but I wonder if the decline in Eucharistic faith is not tied into the massive disenchantment of the liturgy that has occurred since Vatican II.

Surely it is much more difficult to believe the mystery of transubstantiation when the liturgy, as presently enacted in most congregations, appears to say just the opposite! Does the liturgy truly witness to the Eucharistic miracle when the banality, informality, irreverence, and sometimes just plain ugliness of the liturgical celebration tells us that this is just a communal meal with a religious intent?

Do not mistake me. I am not romanticizing pre-Vatican II liturgy, nor am I pleading for a return to the Latin Mass. But looking at American Catholic liturgy as it has developed over the past forty years, one simply has to wonder, What in the world were people thinking?!

I feel I have to agree with the author on this. Having studied my way into the Catholic Church I was enchanted by the mystery and beauty of the Catholic faith. However, I made the mistake of reading Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy” before I went to my first mass. When I went to my local parish I was totally let down, it felt more protestant than Catholic. But after some reseach I was able to find a parish that celebrates a Novus Ordo mass ad orientum, lots of Latin (not totally Latin), Gregorian Chants, incense, communion rail, etc. This liturgy filled me with reverent awe, seemed to lift me into heaven, and it felt truly Catholic.

Maybe I am just a 28 year-old ultra-traditional fuddy-duddy, but couldn’t a re-enchanting of the mass re-energize the faithful?

Yes it could…the problem is some don’t think so- they think young people don’t want tradition or reverence- just as they didn’t want it, and threw it out in the 60’s and 70’s. Young people do want tradition and reverence. Young seminarians tend to be very orthodox and reverent, and have a great respect for tradition. This gives me great hope for the future.

There has been a resurgence of big, traditional (not necessarily Tridentine traditional- just that they like reverence and homilies that talk about tough stuff) Catholic families over the past 20 years or so. It will be very interesting to see how things will turn out when the children of these families grow up and become the priests and bishops of the future.

IMO getting rid of the Indult for communion in the hand would bring about more belief in transubstantiation.

[quote=SummaTheo]IMO getting rid of the Indult for communion in the hand would bring about more belief in transubstantiation.
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I agree wholeheartedly. I happen to think that intinction would be the best way remove the hand option with the Body and avoid any accidents with the cup.

[quote=arieh0310]I agree wholeheartedly. I happen to think that intinction would be the best way remove the hand option with the Body and avoid any accidents with the cup.
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I think we ought to leave it as it is (how you rec. is an option and you may rec. from the Chalice), but have more Eucharistic devotions, adoration, processions, and catechesis.

[quote=arieh0310]I agree wholeheartedly. I happen to think that intinction would be the best way remove the hand option with the Body and avoid any accidents with the cup.
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And gee, we would have to have altar boys with patens as well.

Oh sucks. :wink:

[quote=Brendan]And gee, we would have to have altar boys with patens as well.

Oh sucks. :wink:
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Yeah don’t you just hate that. :yup:

[quote=JKirkLVNV]I think we ought to leave it as it is (how you rec. is an option and you may rec. from the Chalice), but have more Eucharistic devotions, adoration, processions, and catechesis.
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This may ruffle some feathers, but if the bread and wine cease to exist and they are truly transubstantiated into the very Blood and Body of the Lord, why would we allow any chance for Him to fall on the ground or get some particle unintentionally slipped into your pocket?

In C. S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” the apprentice demon was instructed not to get him to doubt the faith, but instead to get him to not worry about his posture when praying. He was told that it was the little things that would lead to an erosion of faith. I think if you require reverence the catechesis will come rather than strictly the other way around.

I’m a middle-aged American who LOVES the indult Latin Mass. Of course whether the Mass is conducted in English or Latin, it’s the same Truly Present Jesus Christ we receive in the Holy Eucharist. That said, I just personally find the Latin Mass far more beautiful, majestic, spiritual, satisfying, deep, rich, magnificent, praise-laden, and drawing me closer into the Loving Presence of God !!! :slight_smile:

~~ the phoenix

[quote=arieh0310]This may ruffle some feathers, but if the bread and wine cease to exist and they are truly transubstantiated into the very Blood and Body of the Lord, why would we allow any chance for Him to fall on the ground or get some particle unintentionally slipped into your pocket?

In C. S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” the apprentice demon was instructed not to get him to doubt the faith, but instead to get him to not worry about his posture when praying. He was told that it was the little things that would lead to an erosion of faith. I think if you require reverence the catechesis will come rather than strictly the other way around.
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I don’t think God is concerned about accidents, though I would certainly welcome the use of a paten. I simply don’t want anyone putting their hands near my mouth and I think most priests would rather not do so, though I’ve no proof of that. The Church allows me to rec. in the hand and I intend to continue. I think catechisis explains why we need reverence.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]I don’t think God is concerned about accidents, though I would certainly welcome the use of a paten. I simply don’t want anyone putting their hands near my mouth and I think most priests would rather not do so, though I’ve no proof of that. The Church allows me to rec. in the hand and I intend to continue. I think catechisis explains why we need reverence.
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I agree with you an the catechisis, but in actuality, the priests fingers to not get near your mouth with intinction. It is wet on one end so the priest’s fingers are away from there.

but if the bread and wine cease to exist and they are truly transubstantiated into the very Blood and Body of the Lord, why would we allow any chance for Him to fall on the ground or get some particle unintentionally slipped into your pocket?

When I spoke to my priest on this subject, he said the new thinking is that too much time was spent on the “little things”, and not enough time on what actually matters: the mass. I assume the “little things” includes a particle of the lord falling onto the ground? I was shocked when he told me this.

S

Boy, I must have been tired when I wrote that, it doesn’t make any sense. Let me try again:

In C. S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” the apprentice demon is being instructed on how to destroy the faith of a new Christian. The apprentice demon was told not to go after the Christian’s doctrines directly but to instead convince him not worry so much about his posture in prayer. Once the apprentice was able to convince the Christian that outward expressions of reverence weren’t necessary then he would easily be convinced that inward expressions of reverence weren’t needed either.

I am not saying that anyone who takes communion in hand is under the influence of a demon, but I do think taking communion in hand is one of the reasons why many Catholics don’t fully understand what the Eucharist really is. If the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood and Soul and Divinity of our most Holy Savior why should I risk any portion of Him to be trampled or laundered.

I think profound reverence would cause the average uncatechized Catholic to think “there must be something special about the Eucharist”

[quote=slewi]a particle of the lord falling onto the ground
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[quote=arieh0310]why should I risk any portion of Him to be trampled or laundered
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As a stickler for “the little things” myself:) , I just want to add that there are no particles of Our Lord, nor portions of Him. He is whole and entire, substantially present in the least particle *of the species. *

We have to take care not to give the impression that the accidents of bread and wine are the accidents of, or inhere in, or our predicated upon, Our Lord.

So, just a clarification, even though I knew what you meant. I apologize for my over stickleryness. What do you think? :thumbsup:
VC

[quote=slewi]When I spoke to my priest on this subject, he said the new thinking is that too much time was spent on the “little things”, and not enough time on what actually matters: the mass. I assume the “little things” includes a particle of the lord falling onto the ground? I was shocked when he told me this.

S
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How much of a problem is that? With the way hosts are made today, I don’t think crumbs are much of an issue. There have been days when I wondered if the Host was going to dissolve in my mouth or not! The only time I’ve seen a crumb are when the priest distirbutes from the large celebrant’s host that breaks into sections.

If a portion is seen to fall to the floor, then there are appropriate, reverent steps that can be taken. I don’t think it’s much of problem and I don’t think I’m less orthodox or less reverent for thinking so. We can become so overly concerned that we’re afraid to approach the Lord in the Sacrament. I don’t think He wants that, otherwise He wouldn’t have given Himself to us in that way.

[quote=Verbum Caro]As a stickler for “the little things” myself:) , I just want to add that there are no particles of Our Lord, nor portions of Him. He is whole and entire, substantially present in the least particle *of the species. *

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Thank you for articulating that, I did not mean that our Lord is divided up in the particles. This understanding that the Lord is fully present in the least particle of the species is what has lead me to be an advocate for communion by mouth only.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]How much of a problem is that? With the way hosts are made today, I don’t think crumbs are much of an issue. There have been days when I wondered if the Host was going to dissolve in my mouth or not! The only time I’ve seen a crumb are when the priest distirbutes from the large celebrant’s host that breaks into sections.

If a portion is seen to fall to the floor, then there are appropriate, reverent steps that can be taken. I don’t think it’s much of problem and I don’t think I’m less orthodox or less reverent for thinking so. We can become so overly concerned that we’re afraid to approach the Lord in the Sacrament. I don’t think He wants that, otherwise He wouldn’t have given Himself to us in that way.
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I have personally seen particles remain on someones hand after the person has received it.

[quote=arieh0310]Boy, I must have been tired when I wrote that, it doesn’t make any sense. Let me try again:

In C. S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” the apprentice demon is being instructed on how to destroy the faith of a new Christian. The apprentice demon was told not to go after the Christian’s doctrines directly but to instead convince him not worry so much about his posture in prayer. Once the apprentice was able to convince the Christian that outward expressions of reverence weren’t necessary then he would easily be convinced that inward expressions of reverence weren’t needed either.

I am not saying that anyone who takes communion in hand is under the influence of a demon, but I do think taking communion in hand is one of the reasons why many Catholics don’t fully understand what the Eucharist really is. If the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood and Soul and Divinity of our most Holy Savior why should I risk any portion of Him to be trampled or laundered.

I think profound reverence would cause the average uncatechized Catholic to think “there must be something special about the Eucharist”
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I would never argue that outward expressions are not important. I simply do not think that receiving in the hand is an inappropriate outward expression. It was the practice of the Apostolic and Patristic periods. I don’t think we know better than they do. I’m not appealing to that to force “by hand” on the whole of the Church, but this is the very thing that makes me wary of “traditionalists” (I put that in quotes, because I consider myself a traditional Catholic, insofar as I belong and adhere to the Catholic Church and I follow her traditions. I’m not advocating innovation, these were practices already with antecedents): I don’t think some of them would take my stance of “you can receive by tongue, I’ll continue to receive in the hand, thank you.” I think their attitude would be “you’ll receive by hand or you won’t receive at all. You also won’t receive from the Chalice. You’ll also have to kneel, whether there’s a rail or not and whether you can or not. The priest WILL wear a fiddleback chasuble and a maniple and the canon WILL be silent ever afterward.” Acknowledging what Lewis said via the demon, they seem to think that their outward expression is the ONLY way to go. It isn’t and thank God the Church knows that. Only one Bishop spoke of ending communion in the hand at the recent synod, no one else wanted it, and it didn’t make it into the final documents. Now, that doesn’t mean I don’t think you shouldn’t be allowed this. I think you should. Do YOU think I should be allowed to rec. in the hand if I wish?

[quote=arieh0310]Ran across an interesting article today, below is a quote:

I feel I have to agree with the author on this. Having studied my way into the Catholic Church I was enchanted by the mystery and beauty of the Catholic faith. However, I made the mistake of reading Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy” before I went to my first mass. When I went to my local parish I was totally let down, it felt more protestant than Catholic. But after some reseach I was able to find a parish that celebrates a Novus Ordo mass ad orientum, lots of Latin (not totally Latin), Gregorian Chants, incense, communion rail, etc. This liturgy filled me with reverent awe, seemed to lift me into heaven, and it felt truly Catholic.

Maybe I am just a 28 year-old ultra-traditional fuddy-duddy, but couldn’t a re-enchanting of the mass re-energize the faithful?
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I read a book by Maria Simma, a person who lives (I think?) in Croatia (I don’t have the book handy). She is visited by spirits in Purgatory, who ask her to pray for deliverance. I know that sounds hard to believe and I didn’t believe it either, at first - until i read the book. The thing that makes me believe her is that she is an orthodox Roman Catholic. Her comments are very interesting. For one, she makes the point that receiving Communion in hand is wrong because it is the priest only who is supposed to handle the holy Eucharist.

Of course, the problem nowadays is that the priest’s role - one that is supposed to be distinct from that of the eucharistic minister’s - is being diminised to the point where there seems to be no disctinction at all; this is another of the many ways in which liberal changes are being accepted (sometimes blindly) in the Church.

Masons had a big influence on getting the changes they wanted at Vatican II (Masons often become priests, bishops, etc. in order to do this very thing). It is imperative that all Catholics realize the importance of the Masons in this trend we have of non-Catholics seeking to destroy or at least weaken the Catholic faith. While the Masons (etc) probably realize they cannot, as they would like, wipe the Church off the face of the earth entirely, they figure that at least they can “protestantize” it, take away the reverence, etc. And as far as I’m concerned, when the reverence goes, so goes the faith of many Catholics. Even my own faith “falters” (?) now and then in some mysterious ways…

I went to a Mass last Saturday in an unfamiliar church; the priest was a former Baptist. The color for the priestly robes at this time of the year is supposed to be purple, but he wore pink!! He left the pulpit during the homily (against the rubrics of the Mass). He told a story about how as a boy, he broke a neighbor’s window and his grandfather simply said, “everyone deserves one bad pitch,” and apparently, didn’t make him pay for it. His point was how much God loves us.

My thought is that a good father would make the boy pay for it, even though he forgives his son (grandson) and loves him unconditionally no matter what crimes he commits. Don’t you think God operates the same way? When is the last time you heard a homily about Purgatory, much less Hell? In 12 years, i can remember hearing ONE!

I thought it was interesting that even before this homily, all during it and long afterwards, i never felt any reverence at Mass, as i usually do. I have a lot going on in my life right now, issues that cause me emotional anxiety, so i thought the problem of not feeling the reverence was something within myself. Yet, now i know it was NOT.

I went to Mass at a different Church the next morning where i know the priest to be orthodox and this time, I felt great. Nothing in my circumstances had changed one bit so i know the problems wasn’t ME.

I think everyone should read Maria Simmas book.

I don’t think we Catholics should let people tell us that we are making a big deal out of wanting the Mass to be as it used to be…

The devil is using the Masons, etc., to destroy the Church. It is up to us to tell him to go back to where he belongs.

[quote=contramundum]I read a book by Maria Simma, a person who lives (I think?) in Croatia (I don’t have the book handy). She is visited by spirits in Purgatory, who ask her to pray for deliverance. I know that sounds hard to believe and I didn’t believe it either, at first - until i read the book. The thing that makes me believe her is that she is an orthodox Roman Catholic. Her comments are very interesting. For one, she makes the point that receiving Communion in hand is wrong because it is the priest only who is supposed to handle the holy Eucharist.

This seer is unapproved by the Church. If she asserts that communion in the hand is out and out “wrong,” then I would question the authenticity anyway. One of the marks of genuine seers and apparitions is submission to the authority of the Church: even apparitions of Our Blessed Mother do not ask the seer to fufill their request if the fufillment of the request is forbidden by the Church through the ordinary. Communion in the hand is permitted by the Church, therefore it cannot be wrong. It cannot be an abuse.

Masons had a big influence on getting the changes they wanted at Vatican II (Masons often become priests, bishops, etc. in order to do this very thing). It is imperative that all Catholics realize the importance of the Masons in this trend we have of non-Catholics seeking to destroy or at least weaken the Catholic faith. While the Masons (etc) probably realize they cannot, as they would like, wipe the Church off the face of the earth entirely, they figure that at least they can “protestantize” it, take away the reverence, etc. And as far as I’m concerned, when the reverence goes, so goes the faith of many Catholics. Even my own faith “falters” (?) now and then in some mysterious ways…

**This is radical traditionalist propaganda. There is absolutely NO reliable, historical evidence that Masons had anything at all to do with the Council. There are plenty of conspiracy theories purported by radical traditionalist sites and publishers, but not a single, reliable, objective source for Masonic influence over the Council. As an aside, every Mason I’ve ever known has been an elderly man in a seed cap who wears the waistband of his pants up under his armpits. I think Christ’s Promise to preserve the Church can withstand any perceived assualt from this group. I don’t think the Masons are much of a threat at all to Holy Mother Church and I think the Pope and the Bishops think that as well…but then I’m sure they’re all Masons.:rolleyes: **

I went to a Mass last Saturday in an unfamiliar church; the priest was a former Baptist. The color for the priestly robes at this time of the year is supposed to be purple, but he wore pink!! **Really, you should familiarize yourself with the liturgy before you comment on it. Last Sunday was “Gaudette (Joyful) Sunday.” Even the SSPX wear pink on that day. It’s TRADITIONAL. **He left the pulpit during the homily (against the rubrics of the Mass). He told a story about how as a boy, he broke a neighbor’s window and his grandfather simply said, “everyone deserves one bad pitch,” and apparently, didn’t make him pay for it. His point was how much God loves us.

My thought is that a good father would make the boy pay for it, even though he forgives his son (grandson) and loves him unconditionally no matter what crimes he commits. Don’t you think God operates the same way? When is the last time you heard a homily about Purgatory, much less Hell? In 12 years, i can remember hearing ONE!

I thought it was interesting that even before this homily, all during it and long afterwards, i never felt any reverence at Mass, as i usually do. I have a lot going on in my life right now, issues that cause me emotional anxiety, so i thought the problem of not feeling the reverence was something within myself. Yet, now i know it was NOT.

I went to Mass at a different Church the next morning where i know the priest to be orthodox and this time, I felt great. Nothing in my circumstances had changed one bit so i know the problems wasn’t ME. Oh, certainly not.

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