Reading Scripture together as Christians

shouldn’t take long to post 500 years worth of info on this!

I literally laughed out loud when the link took me to William Webster’s work; no kidding, laughing out loud in my office!
Your credibility has sunk to a new low with this!

Here’s a good one to refute Webster: Webster Stumbles “Upon this Rock”

My creditibility is meaningless on this fourm site. I am not a man pleaser. I don’t think you can make an accurate distinction between tradition and Sacred Tradition because you probably are unable to know the difference. The doctrine of Sacred Tradition is a man made idea to convince the laity to believe everything that Rome tells you to believe. It is not good enough to say it’s true because Rome tells you that it is true. Trust in God through His Holy Scriptures. Faith is based on biblical revelation and not sources that cannot be supplied when requested.

And we’re back to that fundamental question you are so keen to avoid:
What is the Biblical proof for the canon you accept and believe?

After all, in order to trust Sacred Scripture, I need Sacred Tradition to tell me which writings were actually inspired by God.
You have, on this thread, admitted to this.

Sacred Tradition are acutal written documents, correct? Can you supply it to me? If I am missing revealtion from God, I think it’s important for me to have them. Does it come in Latin and English too?

You are mixing apples with oranges. please answer my question and I’d be happy to discuss this further.

The Ephesians lost the love they first had (while in a state of grace).

My question still stands. Why would Jesus give the Ephesians a warning about losing their salvation if his finished work had them covered?

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

Unless I really misunderstand Calvinism, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Jesus is warning the elect who already have the lampstand of salvation (because their sins are covered) that they might lose their salvation. :eek: Just in case they are not the elect they can examine themselves, but it doesn’t matter what they discover because there is nothing they can do about it anyway.

Unless, you think God was the one who caused them to lose their love. :shrug:

Are you capable of answering the question posed to you:
What is the Biblical proof for the canon you accept and believe?
After all, when I stated:

You replied:

I trust in God through his Holy Scriptures.

I trust the Catholic Church–not the secular city of Rome–because God, in his Holy Bible, tells me to (1 Tim. 3:15).

If you have a problem with Catholics trusting the Church, you’re going to have to take it up with the Lord. :shrug:

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a man made idea to convince the laity doctrine is created by cherry picking verses, instead of reading the Bible as a unified witness to God. :frowning: It promotes bickering over what the Scriptures mean, because under this system, you get dozens of opinions, but no real answers. :frowning:

It has resulted in strife, confusion, and division. :frowning:

Lord God, change our hearts.

St. Theresa of Avila, pray for us. (It’s her feast day today.)

:heart: Love is Patient

I think you need a good convesation with Michael and try to settle your understanding of the invisible church. Sheeps and goats, weat and tares, under-sheperds and wolves are words from Jesus. Don’t you see Revelation as being adressed to the seven churches?

Never mind, you are not able to supply Sacred written and oral Tradition. At least when I discuss things with Mormons, they are able to provide their sacred tradition to me. I used to have The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price alongside of my Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Companion of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We used to carry these sources in our door to door ministry.

Heck, if you put a stack of all written Sacred Tradition next to the Holy Bible, the bible stack would probably be about 1% in size as compared to all that Sacred Tradition. :shrug: If the pile of Sacred Tradition becomes too large, all you have to do is believe whatever the Catholic Church tells you to believe. That’s quite a risk considering what’s at stake for you, your family, friends and neighbors, don’t you think?

Do you ever tire of all the bobbing and weaving you do here? When you went door-to-door, did you ever answer questions posed to you?
It really is a simple question, Reformed:
What is the Biblical proof for the canon you accept and believe?

Or you can supply the tradition you believe supports your belief in the canon.

I think I can safely assume that Michael believes we can lose our salvation. (I apologize if I’m wrong)

How about you do me a favor and explain (Rev 2) as it pertains to (Eph 1).

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus, write this: " 'The one who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks in the midst of the seven gold lampstands says this: "I know your works, your labor, and your endurance, and that you cannot tolerate the wicked; you have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and discovered that they are impostors. Moreover, you have endurance and have suffered for my name, and you have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. " ‘“Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God.”’

I’m particularly interested in how (Eph 1: 13-14) relates

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

That’s a good question and don’t have an answer for you. The Book of Revelation is a difficult book, and might not be the best to get essential doctrine. We both agree that Revelation is addressing specific churches, right?

Agreed - Christ is indeed seated at the right hand of God the Father, but where Christ is seated wasn’t the subject…

If Protestants don’t need another right-hand man or lady, then why do they follow Calvin’s (or whoever’s) spin on the Bible, while dismissing Christ’s Church that was entrusted with God’s Book through the authority of His Holy Spirit?

You have been mislead. Jesus Christ called Peter the rock - how can you deny this?

Not when they’re incorrect.


& I love your signature! :slight_smile:

Petro…petra… Rock…rock… so that’s the only claim we have in Scripture for apostolic succession? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints use a very similar kind of verse to support their apostolic succession claim too. Here is their claim to fame.

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. - John 10

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. - Matt 16

Maybe “this rock” is the testimony of Peter’s that Jesus is the Christ? So, here is some Calvinism for you. Why did Jesus tells his disciples not tell no one that He is the Christ? And why did Jesus speak in parables according to the Scriptures?

Yes, but there are many layers to the book.


Christ is telling Simon that he has spoken words that God the Father gave him to say. He then called him Peter (which to my understanding began the traditional practice of the Popes taking different names)…

Thanks, I think I understand the claim of apostolic succession for Matthew 16. I just don’t believe it. I guess if I did, I would be Roman Catholic…oops I mean Catholic… oops…I’m already catholic.

Do you know anything about the concepts of humanism, where and when they originated? I think if you look into this, you will find that Catholic soteriology predates it for many centuries. :wink:

The fact that God has chosen to involve man in His plan of salvation is a reflection of His soverignity, not man’s. Mankind acting in accordance with God’s intention does not “rob” God, but glorifies Him. He is pleased to be glorified in his angels and saints. It is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom, and he is pleased when we receive it from Him. Our cooperation with His will for us does not make us into God, but makes us partakers in HIs divine nature.

This is a logical fallacy. A faulty conclusion based on a faulty premise.

No. It is a reflection of God’s sovereignity that He created us to be able to choose whether we want to spend eternity with Him or not.

God chooses to allow us to decide if we wish to live or die. It does not make HIm less sovereign.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live …"

God desires all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Catholicism is not “Roman” and I would like it if you would refrain from using that term in this context. It seems clear you are using it in a pejorative sense. This is now the sixth time I have asked you.

Of course Catholics must reject the notion of “biblical doctrine”. Doctrine comes from Jesus, through the Apostles. It is not lifted out of the pages of scripture by cutting and pasting. :eek:

Catholics wrote the NT, that is why there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic teaching.:thumbsup:

You have been misinformed about Catholicism. Catholics do know that God will save us from our sins. this is why Jesus died for us on the cross.

Eph 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.

Jesus gave himself up for us, so that He can present us to Himself in splendor.

Rom 5:9-11
" Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

We are saved by His blood, and we will be saved from the wrath of God.

Not much. You have been misinformed about Catholicisism. The doctrine of salvation was not composed in the middle ages, but by Jesus, in the first centrury,

Look to the finished work of Christ on your behalf to the glory of God alone and you too can rejoice in God the Rock your Savior. If I built my faith upon the rock of a man, then I too would not have much hope and assurance… and no praises to sing and proclaim to the world. There is no great good news without understanding the finished work of Christ. :shrug:

On God rests my salvation and my glory;
my mighty rock, my refuge is God. - Pslam 62:7

And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, - Luke 1

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit