Receive tongues before baptism?!


#1

Someone who is not Catholic told me that she can speak in tongues and has the Holy Spirit in her, even though she has not been baptized. I always thought that the sacrament of baptism was what instilled the Holy Spirit in an individual and gave a person these gifts. Why does this girl then possess the gifts of the Spirit, even though she hasn’t been baptized?


#2

If this is a valid gift of the Spirit in her particular case, there is baptism by desire. IF she is unaware of the sacrament of baptism, or does not realize it’s necessity, God can still give her the gift if He chooses. (Actually, in the Acts, there are two instances where they begin to speak in tongues immediately after they are confirmed by the laying on of hands by the Apostles…I’m not sure if it is recorded as having happened immediately after baptism, but they were confirmed right away). Take a look at Acts 10. There we have an extraordinary case, where, in the first ‘outpouring of the Spirit’ on the Gentiles, God grants the gift of the Spirit prior to baptism. (They are baptized right away once they receive the gift, however).


#3

The Holy Spirit works in everyone regardless of their state of baptism. Remember that those who become Christians as adults were led there by the Spirit and not solely by their own actions or those of others. We participate in the work of the Spirit, but it is His work.


#4

[quote=Madaglan]Someone who is not Catholic told me that she can speak in tongues and has the Holy Spirit in her, even though she has not been baptized. I always thought that the sacrament of baptism was what instilled the Holy Spirit in an individual and gave a person these gifts. Why does this girl then possess the gifts of the Spirit, even though she hasn’t been baptized?
[/quote]

She may possess a spirit, but it may not be the Holy Spirit. Remember that demons can also speak in strange tongues. The Scriptures warn us to pay attention not so much to the fact that someone speaks but what are they saying. Who interprets what she says?


#5

I would really like to understand what speaking in tongues means if no one can understand it?


#6

[quote=janman55]I would really like to understand what speaking in tongues means if no one can understand it?
[/quote]

St. Paul has quite a bit to say about that:

:bible1: Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me. So with yourselves: since you strive eagerly for spirits, seek to have an abundance of them for building up the church. Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret. (For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive. So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind. Otherwise, if you pronounce a blessing (with) the spirit, how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks very well, but the other is not built up. I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:6-19


#7

I am sorry for being a pessimist…but I go to an Indult TLM Church and I have never heard anyone speak about them experiencing the gift of tongues or knowing anyone who has…I am not saying that it doesn’t happen by any means…but it seems today that everyother person is claiming they have the gift…so that leads me to wonder:

1)Why in the 2,000 + years of Catholicism, are we just now seeing wide spread and numerous cases of people speaking in tongues?
2)Are CAtholics who celebrate the TLM not worthy of these gifts…and if we are, then why do they only seem to be reserved for Charismatic groups? I find it hard to believe that they have been doing something wrong for 2,000 years.

This is just something I don’t really understand…and I may be wrong, but I believe that the majority of these incidents in modern history of people speaking in tongues is either A) a hoax…someone is doing it deceitfully, or B) it is the work of not The Holy Spirit…but of someone else (you know who I am talking about)

Plus…how many times when people claim to speak in tongues is all the criteria met for it to be considered valid?

I am just a skeptic of all of this and out of all the Masses I have ever attended both TLM and Novus Ordo…I have never, ever seen it happen…nor have I seen in happen outside of Church…IWhy is that? I guess Orthodox Catholics just aren’t worthy to receive the gift.


#8

there are two incidents in Acts where certain Christians received the Holy Spirit before baptism, and as soon as the other apostles found out, they were then baptized. that is because the link between water baptism and the anointing with the holy spirit was understood to be so intimately linked that the Christian was not fully initiated without them. At that point they were introduced to the mystery of the Eucharist. The Charismatic gifts described in Acts, as well as the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah) and the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians), are freely available to all initiated, anointed Christians who ask for them.

The difference is that the charismatic gifts, among which Paul considers speaking in tongues the least, and worthless without someone to interpret, are given expressly to build up the Church, and the recipients are chosen by the Holy Spirit for the reception of gifts they are intended to use for the sake of the kingdom: administration, preaching, teaching, presbytery, governing, catechising, healing, prophesying etc.

It is not reasonable to expect every Chrisitian to exhibit every one of these charistmatic gifts, but each Christian definitely has been given a gift to use for the sake of the Church. To reject it or to fail to exercise it is a rebuke against the Holy Spirit. that is the answer to anyone who says “I am unworthy to serve”.


#9

[quote=Madaglan]Someone who is not Catholic told me that she can speak in tongues and has the Holy Spirit in her, even though she has not been baptized. I always thought that the sacrament of baptism was what instilled the Holy Spirit in an individual and gave a person these gifts. Why does this girl then possess the gifts of the Spirit, even though she hasn’t been baptized?
[/quote]

My understanding is that such charisms are independent of the gifts given by the Holy Spirit at Baptism. In the N.T people are recorded as receiving charisms before baptism but still having (desiring) to be baptised. Charism’s such as these might be used to build up the Church by attracting those who need sensory consolation that leads on to the path of faith. No matter what, baptism is still required as can be seen from the accounts in the N.T.

Jack


#10

[quote=Madaglan]Someone who is not Catholic told me that she can speak in tongues and has the Holy Spirit in her, even though she has not been baptized. I always thought that the sacrament of baptism was what instilled the Holy Spirit in an individual and gave a person these gifts. Why does this girl then possess the gifts of the Spirit, even though she hasn’t been baptized?
[/quote]

And if it was a joke?, only is a possiblity but people say lies many times.


#11

[quote=Madaglan]Someone who is not Catholic told me that she can speak in tongues and has the Holy Spirit in her, even though she has not been baptized. I always thought that the sacrament of baptism was what instilled the Holy Spirit in an individual and gave a person these gifts. Why does this girl then possess the gifts of the Spirit, even though she hasn’t been baptized?
[/quote]

The Sacrament of Baptism cleanses one of the guilt of all sin and the temporal punishments due those sins. The Sacrament of Baptism cleanses us of sin so that the Holy Spirit can indwell in the soul.

God can bestow grace upon a person without God indwelling in the soul. In fact, without God giving healing grace first, an adult could not even desire to be saved. The Catholic Church has a nuanced understanding of grace, and she understands that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are not the same as the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit. A person can receive the charismatic gift of speaking in tongues before they receive the Sacrament of Baptism. The Gentiles of the household of Cornelius were speaking in tongues before they were baptized:While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 10: 44-48Today, one can find people speaking in tongues in the Pentecostal Oneness churches. Oneness Pentecostalism is a Protestant sect that has embraced the heresy of modalism, and because of this, they do not perform valid baptisms within this sect. The invalidly baptised members of the Pentecostal Oneness churches are like the Gentiles in the household of Cornelius that were speaking in tongues before they received the Sacrament of Baptism. They have heard the word, they have the charismatic gift of speaking in tongues, but they are not yet Christians, because they have not yet been validly baptized.


#12

As Dr. Colossus noted, in scripture, those speaking in “true tongues” always had to have a way for someone to understand it. Otherwise, it is really pure gibberish.

Madaglan - you should ask your friend who interprets her “tongues”. If she says no one can, that is not speaking in tongues.

On their home-page, Catholics Answers has information on this topic. Just put the word “tongues” into the “search” area. They have a tract on The Nature of Tongues.
MBS1


#13

[quote=MBS1][font=Verdana]As Dr. Colossus noted, in scripture, those speaking in “true tongues” always had to have a way for someone to understand it.
[/quote]

Dr. Colossus is wrong about that, but that is grist for another thread. :slight_smile:


#14

I get a very distinct picture of Paul’s strong personality from his letters, which is a little different from stories about him in Acts. does anybody else have a hard time picturing Paul speaking in tongues?


#15

[quote=puzzleannie]I get a very distinct picture of Paul’s strong personality from his letters, which is a little different from stories about him in Acts. does anybody else have a hard time picturing Paul speaking in tongues?
[/quote]

No, not at all, because Paul writes this to the church in Corinth:"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all …"
1Cor. 14:18


#16

[quote=Matt16_18]Dr. Colossus is wrong about that, but that is grist for another thread. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hey now, I didn’t make that conclusion. I just posted at length from the Bible. I guess that’s more proof why Sola Scriptura doesn’t work. :wink:


#17

Well I am sorry to say this but I think the “speaking in tongues” as understood by todays charismatics is a load of over-emotive hysterical gobbledygook.
I have been to such groups and there tends to be a protestantisation of the Church in these groups, No reverence for our Lady, a casualisation of the Mass, an overabundace of over 50’s mediterrainian women, and worst of all a sense that somehow they are Super-Christians.
I have had one tell me that you don’t have to believe in the Assumption to be Catholic and after serving at a Mass for the Charomaniacs, I was asked if I would be converting now!!!
By thier fruits will you know them.
I think the poster who mentions St Pauls letter to the Corinthians to be right on track. Personally I think the historical “speaking in tongues” meant those who could communicate the Gospel in any tongue needed to convert the foriegner.
I do not intend to offend one who genuinely believes they have this “gift” but ask them to evaluate what use is it and to what ends does it bring one.


#18

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]She may possess a spirit, but it may not be the Holy Spirit. Remember that demons can also speak in strange tongues. The Scriptures warn us to pay attention not so much to the fact that someone speaks but what are they saying. Who interprets what she says?
[/quote]

I was thinking along similar lines. What proof is there that she is filled with the Holy Spirit? The fact of speaking tongues is meaningless because this can be caused by auto suggestion, or in the case of a friend of mine by reciting the Latin she remembered from her youth :wink:

Maggie


#19

In my previous post I spoke about my elderly friend who told me about her experience at one of the Pentecostal gatherings, or at least I spoke about a small part of it. What happened is that they were praying over her, nothing happened and she was passed on to another group then another group. She finally twigged as to why this was happening, and she remembered a prayer that she had learned in Latin at School. She recited the prayer and they all fell about congratulating her on being able to speak in tongues.

On the other hand, I have heard someone praying in tongues. Whilst it is true that I could not understand the prayers that were being said, I feel certain that the person (more than one person btw) was praying in a sacred language to God. One of the people that I heard is a Catholic priest and I feel certain that what he was praying fits the description from St. Paul of being able to pray like that. The other person was a charismatic and I do not doubt that he was also praying in tongues. To these people the Holy Spirit has given them a gift that few receive.

I am citing these examples because I want to differentiate between the two cases. In the Pentecostal circles one is supposed to be able to speak in tongues or that person is just plain doomed. However, that is not what is in the Scripture. My priest’s experience, as he was praying over me was authentic.

Maggie


#20

[quote=puzzleannie]I get a very distinct picture of Paul’s strong personality from his letters, which is a little different from stories about him in Acts. does anybody else have a hard time picturing Paul speaking in tongues?
[/quote]

No, I can picture Paul speaking in tongues, the foreign languages for the purpose of preaching & conversion. But I’d have hard time picturing Paul speaking to a crowd and no one understands.


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