Reconcile with Judaism

Hello,

My name in Gabe. I’m a Jewish college student living in South Carolina. I have been struggling a little with my faith and I am curious about how Christians reconcile certain aspects of their faith in regards to Jewish practice. I’ve attached a link to a trusted Jewish website with an article in regards to Jesus of Nazareth. What are your responses to the allegations that they make? aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

I ask with genuine curiosity. Please don’t take any of this with offense.

Sincerely,
Gabe

Thanks for that article link. I’ve seen enough. Someone should tell the Pope about this article. Close this entire forum down now.

Hi, Gabe!
I got sent to this end of the site… after viewing you query I decided to respond… yet, when visiting the link I came into a whole more deal of information than expected…

This site limits the posting to 6000 words and characters so I thought I should give a preliminary (shoot from the belt, if you will) response and, if you are willing, go into more details as we unfold the argument (exchange of ideas):

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
1.Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2.Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3.Biblical verses “referring” to Jesus are mistranslations.
4.Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
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  1. He did. The problem with this issue is that the “proof” will never satisfy those who refuse to accept it.

  2. He did. Again, the main problem is the expectation of the Jews vs God’s Revelation.

  3. They got me on this one. Since there are so many accidents (grammatical) in a language and there are variants in usage, and there are changes in practices… it is understandable that a person from the Jewish ancestry may find the Hebrew translation (into other languages) wanting. However, as with Revelation, removing a vital part, the Holy Spirit, actually hinders understanding–linguists and etymologists aside, God can and has Revealed Himself even without the use of human languages.

  4. Inarguably that is the Jewish stance. However, that is one of the main reasons why they’ve missed the boat!

Now. The above is just a simplistic argument to demonstrate that there are answers to the Jewish Question.

As I said, we can begin on a more concrete method (mind you, I am not a scholar/linguist–just the somewhat above average Catholic). I would prefer that you post specific questions so that I can better direct my presentations.

But I will leave you with one (to me, crucial) thought:

“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 3:1)

9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written:
“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’
11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (St. Matthew 11:9-11)

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). (St. Matthew 1:20-23)

The Word of God has decidedly demonstrated that the Messiah has indeed Come!

Looking forward to learning with you!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi, Harry!
I don’t believe that Gabe is being insulting or abusive… let’s offer him our best in Christ’s Charity.

Maran atha!

Angel

I’m just having a joke :slight_smile: I didn’t interpret Gabe as being insulting or abusive.

To be brutally honest, this rabbi has some serious misconceptions about Christianity, particularly in regards to the Incarnation. When Christians say “God became man”, we don’t mean that the Divine Nature was converted into a human nature, or that the two were mixed to form one nature concocted from the two natures (some of the Coptic Orthodox might not accept this, but that’s not the vast majority of Christians), but that God, while keeping his Divine Nature unaltered, since it’s immutable, assumed a human nature, with a physical body and rational soul that would be united in the Person of the Son of God.

Also, respectfully I would say that quoting Talmudic authors is not sound when arguing with Christians, since it is our contention that these rabbis fundamentally misinterpret the Old Testament (or Tanakh, to be more sensitive).

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

Sorry, but what would the Pope have to do with a Jewish forum?

Hi, Harry!
:o:o:o …sorry I misunderstood… I thought you meant to be dismissive of the cited site. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

We would contend that it is the rabbis who misinterprete the Scriptures, btw this website sorely misunderstood the incarnation ( and I say this as a believing Jew )

What are your responses to the allegations that they make?

Gabe, I will take a section of the link and give my best response below. Thank you for sharing.

Specifically, the Bible says he will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

He did rebuild the Temple. But it was a spiritual Temple, in the form of the Universal Church, not a physical Temple made of human hands. Not a physical Temple where the priests sacrifice animals, but the Church that offers the daily sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

The Temple to which Ezekiel refers may someday be built in physical Jerusalem, but its spiritual elements already exist in the Church, where prayer, psalms, and liturgy have continued uninterrupted for a couple thousand years now.

I recall a quote from a rabbi who had said that if you wanted to see what the Temple sacrifice was like back when the Temple stood in Jerusalem, go visit a traditional Latin Mass and witness the sacrifice of the Mass in-person.

Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

The Church has gathered the lost remnants of spiritual Israel. Many of the tribes of Israel were lost and scattered. They have gathered in the Church, which draws spiritual adherents from every corner of the Earth.

When the Temple stood, Jews from many nations and surrounding territories would visit the Temple, sometimes every year for the feasts, and others only once in a lifetime if the distance was too far. Today, any person can visit the sacrifice of the Mass in-person at any local Catholic church nearly any day of the week. The Messiah has been gathering in His people.

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

In our physical churches, there is complete serenity, quiet, and peace. There is no violence in our liturgy. The Church operates on a spiritual plane, removed from the secular, material world.

The spiritual world, by contrast to the secular world, is one of complete peace. The Church provides that environment in its churches, monasteries, and convents, where peace reigns supreme. Just visit a Carthusian monastery someday.

As far as ending hatred and oppression, the Church has long stood for values of compassion and charity and seeking to end hatred and oppression in the physical world. Suffering and diseases are many times cured with prayers, and the intercession of saints.

On a spiritual plane, all of these terrible problems are vanquished in heaven, of which the Church is the sole spiritual representative on Earth.

Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).

I can think of no other institution other than the Catholic Church that has zealously spread the Word of the Creator to every corner of the earth. This has been done through missionary work, in the building of churches, schools, hospitals, and more.

Maimonides devotes much of his “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is eternal, above time. He is infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die.

God is all powerful, and can do whatever it is He wants. If He wants to assume a human form, He can do so. After all, He is God!

God can intervene supernaturally as He did in the Torah for the Jewish people, and suspend natural laws. God performs millions of miracles every single day. He is all-knowing, all powerful, and perfectly capable of assuming human form if He so chooses. This concept is not an affront to God, but rather an acknowledgement of His almighty powers.

Just as water has three forms - liquid, gas, and ice - God can assume any form He so chooses, and still remain God. The Church believes in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The Jews believe in the Holy Ghost as well. In fact, in the Jewish Siddur, every Friday afternoon preceding the Sabbath an Orthodox Jew is instructed to pray from the Song of Songs. In his introductory comments to the Song of Songs, the famous Jewish commentator, Rashi, describes how Solomon was infused with the Holy Spirit. Certainly, Moses was infused with the Holy Spirit, as was Christ.

So, if God can be the Creator, and the Holy Ghost, why can He not be the Christ? Is God somehow incapable of assuming human form if He so chooses? Of course not.

Christ was the Word - the Torah - made flesh. A living, walking Torah.

Throughout the Christian “New Testament,” Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”

Christ came to strengthen the Torah, not abolish it. He never violated any Torah laws. In fact, he put “fences around the Torah” to strengthen the Torah and return the Torah to its original spiritual meaning which had been grossly corrupted.

Christ had not a few choice words to say about how the religious leaders of His time that had corrupted God’s words. The New Testament is replete with this tension between Christ and the religious leaders of His time.

There are interesting arguments on both sides of these issues. Read or view the video debates between Rabbi Tovia Singer and Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jew, to gain a better perspective on the complexities concerning the nature of the Messiah according to both Jewish and Christian thought.

From the article.

A. Virgin Birth

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

A good response from :shamelesspopery.com/did-jesus-use-the-greek-version-of-the-bible/

The most important example of a New Testament writer using the Greek version is in Matthew 1:23, in which Matthew declares that Christ being born of the Virgin Mary fulfills Isaiah 7:14’s prophesy that “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel.” Matthew purposely quotes from the Greek version here, because only the Greek version is unambiguously a prophesy of the Virgin Birth.

Here’s what I mean. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is `almah. That can be a reference to virginity, but it doesn’t have to be. It’s almost identical to the older English word “maiden,” which can mean virgin, unmarried woman, or young woman, or all of the above. So the Hebrew version of Isaiah 7:14 is basically, “the maiden will be with child and give birth to a son,” which might or might not be about the Virgin Mary giving birth.

But what’s significant is that when it was translated into Greek (which was before the time of Christ, mind you), the translators understood it to be about a coming Virgin Birth. And so they chose a Greek word which clearly meant “virgin.” This decision on their part is important, because it was unbiased — the translator wasn’t trying to prove or deny the Virgin Birth, as translators after the coming of Christ have been.

Also important to note, these were Jewish translators who translated almah as virgin in the Septuagint. A clue as to why is found in the preceding verse, where it says the Lord shall give you a sign. Isaiah is saying the maiden that will be with child is a miracle. Truly a miracle if a virgin conceives. That is why the translators of the Septuagint translated almah as virgin.

Many of the objections raised on the webpage linked to in the original post against Jesus being the Jewish Messiah seem to be addressed in a 14-part Catholic TV series featuring Roy Schoeman, a Jewish convert to Catholicism, briefly discussing, chapter by chapter, his 2003 book, Salvation is from the Jews, especially parts 5 and 6. Each part is about 25 minutes long. Here’s a link to Roy Schoeman’s website from which you can access and view the series for free at YouTube, link. If you are interested in exploring his arguments in more detail, new and used copies of his book are available for purchase at amazon.com; used copies are available there for under $5 plus shipping.

Someone forgot to ask the important question: WHICH Judaism?

Orthodox Judaism apparently regards Jesus (Yeshua bar Yusef) as a rabbi and is more accepting of him (of course, not as God and messiah).

Reformed Judaism won’t accept him, Jesus is a right winger to them.

Other branches of Judaism: ?

Where on earth do you get ideas like that from?

I think you’ll find that, for every “what Christians get wrong” internet resource to quote, there’s at least one “what Jews get wrong” internet resource quoted back. :wink:

Well put.

Using the Bible to proof text various religious doctrines is absolutely useless except to fellow believers. Otherwise for every proof text for one tenet, a bunch more can be found to refute it. So it is almost at cross purposes to try and talk across the chasm using Biblical verses, unless the one side is genuinely interested in the other side’s foundation.

But, otherwise, it will never convince, unless their is some sort of nudging by God to that individual.

As a Christian, we can see where some in Judaism are, based on the OP’s link, but I wouldn’t consider it anything more than that. IOW, it’s hardly a threat to Christianity or its beliefs. :wink:

Got this from conversion stories of Orthodox Jews, and Association of Hebrew Catholics.

If that’s not the case, I’m open to hearing more from the orthodox Judaism perspective.

All the movements of Judaism–Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist–recognize that Jesus was a rabbi; not a right-winger though but more of a revolutionary or leftist.

Jesus is a character who appears in Christian scriptures and that’s all that is known about him. Christian scriptures are no part of Judaism.

In so far as the word ‘rabbi’ means ‘teacher’, the character portrayed in Christian scriptures would appear to be a wandering ‘rabbi’, probably influenced by the ‘School of Hillel’.

That the people involved in the conversion stories you cite believe that Orthodox Jews think Jesus was a rabbi of any stature may tell us a lot about the people who convert.

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