Redemption

More Muslim shinnanigins!:smiley: Below is a question I have been asked, any want to attempt to bend their intellect to it?


**Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. **(Isaiah 55:7)

Above verse of the old testament shows that a man could have pardan, before the coming of jesus christ. by doing good works.

But After the coming of jesus christ, God change his system of pardoning. and that system is mentioned in the NEW testament as below;

For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law."Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. **Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us **. (Galatians. 3:10-14)

Now the question is very simple, if there is still a need of doing good works for pardoning ourselves, after believing the jesus Crucifiction. then jesus crucifuction is considered as meaningless, and purposeless. because there was already been a way for pardoning ourselves through good works. [before Jesus coming]. (see, Isaiah 55:7)

And if there is no need to do good works after believing on Jesus crucifiction. like written in the new testament Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians. 3:14) Then my dear christians tell me why Jesus said that;

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17)

There has always been one Way, through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. God is not limited by time as we are.
Whenever anyone is pardoned for their sin, it is because of Jesus.
In any case, if we are really sorry for sin, we will turn from it…I don’t mean that people never again do anything wrong, but we keep trying–if we are genuinely repentant.
I really don’t see any conflict here. (I suspect that these folks are well trained in what they are saying to you…You need to remember that when you are speaking w/them…)
God bless.

Ironically, I find the mispelling of Crucifixtion interesting (see : Crucifiction) as related to Islamic beliefs (it may not have been intended).Christ redeemed mankind on the Cross, and we are saved through God’s free Grace. But, we must cooperate in Faith through Love. Whether we accept Christ’s offering or not, the action cannot change the Act of the Cross 2000 years ago. Thanks and God Bless.

Hi Fighting Fat,
Easy. Yes before Christ one could be pardoned by works.
Now Christ has fulfilled the law so now we believe in Him and because we believe in Him we are also obeying the law. We can not follow a set of rules because it is impossible to obey them. The jews showed us over 1500 years that a person can not be faithful to the law. Only Noah, Daniel and Job. And Job said God visited him everyday.
Christ came to save us from the law because as sinners we can not be a part of God’s body, because He is sinless.
The law is right but we cant obey.
Example. Do not think about an apple
Do not think about a iceberg
Do not think about food
This immediately puts these things in our minds and if it is about lusts that tempt us, we will surely cave in to them. Our thoughts lead to actions
Now Follow the Holy Spirit
Follow the Holy Spirit
Follow the Holy Spirit
see no one thought of an apple an iceberg or about food. Nor will the Holy Spirit lead you to the apple the iceberg or the food either. In Him you will be protected, strengthened and saved continually moment by moment hour by hour day by day until death.
So now we dont follow the laws, but the laws are still there and have been fulfilled. Fulfilled means filled up. I am sorry to say it like that but it is part of the explanation. Now I imagine that no muslim knows this as it came from Christ.
So you can put this to them and blow them out of the water. Think about it first in all of its meaning.
Now the law of the old testament was not a law of justice. Muslims probably think it is as do many Christians.
It is a law of mercy. This is the crux. Mercy.
Think of the enviroment this law went into.
now if a man lost an arm in a fight , his family probably waited their moment and took revenge and maybe killed the other fellow one night when he was drunk or whatever.
So you see, God had mercy and established a law of limitations. Instead of killing the other fellow, you now had to limit your revenge to an equivalent amount. An eye for an eye, not two eyes for an eye. This limit was placed even on marriage and divorce. You had to write a letter instead of just speaking. I imagine it was not such an easy matter to write a letter in an enviroment that was without education and writing materials. But you can see how the old law made all things more difficult, it limited the freedoms.
Then Christ came. now instead of limiting the law to taking one eye only Christ filled it right up, Now you are in danger even if you are angry. Now you have to forgive. How high the bar is now. Now you cant divorce, see how much harder it is now. the system has gone from no law to a law of mercy which put limits on revenge and selfishness to one of love and forgiveness. Now the law says we are guilty even if we think about lust for a women.
Under the old system no one was able to comply except the 3 mentioned earlier in the post. Now the law has been fulfilled how do we obey. It seems impossible. not so. we dont have to obey the law, we follow the Holy Spirit. The new age is not in the physical but in the spirit. This is the age of the spirit. The Holy Spirit has been given. It is our choice, but if we want to activate Gods strength in our life we can because He lives inside of us in Christ who is sinless. Now we have His strength. And He can overcome. because He is God. No sweat.
Digest this and come back and ask me what else you need to know for this post. It is getting quite long.
oh The works come because we follow the Holy Spirit. We dont walk around in circles, LOL He gives us work to do, to show His love for all people, give water, money, help, a meal, shelter for the night, the truth etc and all the while He is teaching us and keeping us from first one sin and then another bit by bit as we grow in Christ whom God resides in. IT is in Christ we are made free.
When the Holy Spirit says go, as He said to Abraham, we go. We dont see Christ when He tells us to go or to do something. We have to act on faith. If we dont have faith in Him, we wont obey and the work is not done.
walk in love
edwinG
Ps I am sorry I had to cut so much out of your post.

[quote=FightingFat]More Muslim shinnanigins!:smiley: Below is a question I have been asked, any want to attempt to bend their intellect to it?

**Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. **(Isaiah 55:7)

Above verse of the old testament shows that a man could have pardan, before the coming of jesus christ. by doing good works.

But After the coming of jesus christ, God change his system of pardoning. and that system is mentioned in the NEW testament as below;

For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law."Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. **Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us **. (Galatians. 3:10-14)

Now the question is very simple, if there is still a need of doing good works for pardoning ourselves, after believing the jesus Crucifiction. then jesus crucifuction is considered as meaningless, and purposeless. because there was already been a way for pardoning ourselves through good works. [before Jesus coming]. (see, Isaiah 55:7)

And if there is no need to do good works after believing on Jesus crucifiction. like written in the new testament Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians. 3:14) Then my dear christians tell me why Jesus said that;

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but **whoever practices **and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17)
[/quote]

Hi FightingFat,
Redemption is a truly wonderful word full of promise, the promise being to those who hear Jesus’s voice.
John 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
John8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."

So if we like Jesus’s words we are His, and if we are His, will He lose us. If you think for one moment that He could lose one of His own you must have a small opinion of His might. He can renew and restore, His wisdom is unlimited and we wont be left lost.
walk in love
edwinG

Thanks for your help Edwin, this is the reply I got-

The thing which you have said is an unlogical thing and cant understood by a human mind. and 2nd it is not a Justice. You said that a person cannot be a faithfull by the law. but I tell you that Deos God not knew that mankind cannot be ever faithfull by law? If God knew then tell me why God wasted the time to send many prophets for the Guidance of mankind? Why Adam, Ibraham, Moses, Suleman …etc. came and brought the Guidance from God. what was that Guidance. that was Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. (Isaiah 55:7) Now my dear brother just think that yes it is right Adam did sins. and other prophets also did sins. and the believers of the prophets also did sins. but my brother! God did provide the solution for thier sins. for thier Justification and Pardoning. and that was Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. (Isaiah 55:7) Now this verse of the Bible tells us that a sinfull man could have also been pardon by God through turning to God.

2nd thing if you say that before jesus christ. No man could ever justified. Then my brother your this believe shows that God is Unjustice. Why He did not send Jesus from the begining. before Adam? If he knew that mankind can not be faithfull and justified without Jesus sacrifiying? Can God be unjust? Never my brother. God can never be unjust.

3rd thing you said that “The law is right but we cant obey.” what is this ? On one hand you say that we should obey tha law. and on the other hand you say that law is right but we cant obey. so dont obey ! Do whatever kind of Sins and Dont care Jesus blood will make you faithfull and you will be pardon. Is this a good teaching? Not a single beleiver of Jesus will agree with this. Even you believe that you should do good works.

Now I want to say is that according to Bible it is clearly proved that mankind could have justified before jesus. because it is written in the bible that GOD WILL FREELY PARDON. Now what deos that mean? it means that if you cant obey all the rules of the law. dont worry. God will pardon. because you tried hard to make your self 100% faithfull. but you failed to do that. so, GOD WILL MERCY ON YOU.

So, if you say that before jesus christ nobody could have justified and faith full. then it means that God is an unjust. The very large amount of mankind came before Jesus and got the Hell… Can you accept this? http://67.18.37.15/1153/48/emo/00000004.gif

First of all, you are a much better person than I am…I would be :banghead: by now…(my head or theirs is in :wink: question…).
OK, a couple of points:
God sent the prophets to call the people to repentance. (I don’t think you will get an argument on this).Not everyone in the Bible was a prophet, however(which problem I have seen before in re Islam…They tend to proclaim people prophets for reasons I don’t get…).The prophets pointed forward to Christ; we are looking back at Him; BUT–God is not confined to time & space as we are. Hence any question of the fairness of God is illogical.
2nd: Jesus was in the beginning before Adam. Jesus is God; see the 1st chapter of John.(Among others…).Now this they won’t like, but it is the core of things!!
3: Nobody is suggesting that we (Christians) should just do any sins we choose; that is a heresy (antinomianism-[sp?]).On the contrary, we are called to holy living, precisely because God (in Jesus) has borne the penalty for our sins to the cross.
4: The statement that before Jesus, everybody went to hell is **not **Christian doctrine. Refer to the Apostles’ Creed: “He descended into hell”–This is NOT the hell of torment; this is sheol, the place of the dead. It is also called paradise, & Abraham’s Bosom. This was where the faithful, the godly, went before the sacrifice of the cross…

(Are you sure you wouldn’t rather just :banghead: ???)…Anyhow, better folk than I will have to carry on from here…

Thanks Zooey that’s helpfull- so we are saying that Jesus’ sacrifice was for all time, before and after and only our humanity has to see this in terms of linear time?

That is my understanding, yes. God, not being confined to our concepts of time & space, knew from the beginning what would happen, & how He would mend it.
OT: Faith in a Messiah to come, & NT (& on to our day):faith in a Messiah who has all ready come…But it is all Jesus, the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world”(Rev 13.8).

The think I said is logical and can be understood. I understand. You need spiritual help. The law now is do not be angry, love those who hate you, pray for those who persecute you, do not repay evil with evil. Do only loving things. 2nd not justice. Wow But I think you mean you dont understand. If you want justice you will die away from God. What you want is mercy and redemption and both of these are only in Christ.

Let him turn to the God. Yes and God says believe in Jesus. If you do not obey this you are sinning, you can not receive the leading of the Holy Spirit and therefore you can not have good works. Good works only come from obedience.
Now we know that we have no chance at all to obey by OUR OWN STRENGTH, but that to obey we need JESUS CHRIST and HIS STRENGTH.
Before in Moses time salvation was by obedience and it is the same today, salavation is through obedience. Believe God that Jesus is His only begotten Son and that God sent Him. Then follow the leading of the Holy Spirit who takes you to Christ who gives you the strength to obey these new very difficult laws which are still in effect. Only with spiritual strength can we obey.

[quote=]2nd thing if you say that before jesus christ. No man could ever justified… God can never be unjust.
[/quote]

Knowledge. God planned things this way so we would have a chance to know Him, to believe in His might, in His sole authority over a long period of time. IF He started with Christ, we would not know He could part the Red Sea, feed people, keep their clothes from wearing out over 40 years of wandering in the desert and so on and on and on. So now we have knowledge of Him. One needs to fear our Lord God. I dont find any Holy Fear and respect in your words for God. Without fear of Him, you wont find the strength to obey. Love without Holy fear is not enough.
Yes God is never unjust. But He is also impartial and if you dont obey Him, He wont live in you nor you in Him and then you have to live in the Lake of Eternal Fire. There are only two places, in Him or in the Lake.

[quote=]3rd thing you said that “The law is right but we cant obey.” what is this ? Even you believe that you should do good works.
[/quote]

You cant obey the law without the strength of Christ. You cant go to Christ without the Holy Spirit who leads you. Only in Christ can any thing be done. Your works are not of your choosing but are found in obedience. Some works require His strength. If you think you are a good man and do some good works according to what God said is good, you are telling God His plan is not necessary and that you are good enough to work your way to Him. This is lawlessness. Obey Him is the only way. HE says, in Christ is your righteousness.

[quote=] GOD WILL FREELY PARDON. it means that if you cant obey all the rules of the law. dont worry. God will pardon. because you tried hard to make your self 100% faithfull. but you failed to do that. so, GOD WILL MERCY ON YOU.
[/quote]

God will freely pardon
God will have mercy on you
Yes yes yes
to those who obey Him.
Believe in Christ and obey Christ.

[quote=]So, if you say that before jesus christ nobody could have justified and faith full. then it means that God is an unjust. The very large amount of mankind came before Jesus and got the Hell… Can you accept this? http://67.18.37.15/1153/48/emo/00000004.gif
[/quote]

Hi Fighting Fat,
Every knee will bow to Christ and judgement will be on works. So those people who obeyed God have works. They are saved.
In a nut shell, obedience is the key and at different times as God has taught us He has required different work, but it is all obedience.
Today in the last days the laws are so difficult that we know in every way that we could not obey unless we had the strength of spiritual help. This strength comes from Christ who showed by His life that He has that strength.
walk in love
edwinG
Ps I hope this helps Fighting Fat.

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