Reformed Catholics

Does anyone know what if anything is being done to stop the spread of the so called “Reformed Catholic” Church movement in the USA? I mean if these self-styled bishops were summarily laisized that might nip this heresy in the bud. When I read the statement of principles I about had a cow. Any comments? Please review these links:

www.holyinnocents.com/Statement%20Principles.pdf

www.holyinnocents.com/THE%20APOSTOLIC%20SUCCESSION%20OF%20THE%20REFORMED%20CATHOLIC%20CHURCH.pdf

Re I mean if these self-styled bishops were summarily laisized that might nip this heresy in the bud.

A validly, even if illicitly, ordained bishop is a bishop forever, with power to ordain new bishops.

[quote=eleusis]Does anyone know what if anything is being done to stop the spread of the so called “Reformed Catholic” Church movement in the USA? I mean if these self-styled bishops were summarily laisized that might nip this heresy in the bud. When I read the statement of principles I about had a cow. Any comments? Please review these links:

www.holyinnocents.com/Statement%20Principles.pdf

www.holyinnocents.com/THE%20APOSTOLIC%20SUCCESSION%20OF%20THE%20REFORMED%20CATHOLIC%20CHURCH.pdf

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I couldn’t open it. What does it say? God Bless

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]I couldn’t open it. What does it say? God Bless
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To summarize they list how they are tying themselves to Peter. and in the other they show that they support married priests, homosexuality, distribution of the Eucharist to ANY baptised Christian and only Three Mortal Sins exist and need to be confessed, all others are venial. There’s more but thats what I recall off the top of my head.

[quote=eleusis]Does anyone know what if anything is being done to stop the spread of the so called “Reformed Catholic” Church movement in the USA? I mean if these self-styled bishops were summarily laisized that might nip this heresy in the bud. When I read the statement of principles I about had a cow. Any comments? Please review these links:

www.holyinnocents.com/Statement%20Principles.pdf

www.holyinnocents.com/THE%20APOSTOLIC%20SUCCESSION%20OF%20THE%20REFORMED%20CATHOLIC%20CHURCH.pdf

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These are not Roman Catholics. This a renagade splinter from the Old Catholic Church movement, who have apparently created a denomination with probably valid but illicit and/or irregular Apostolic succession. (I get the terms ‘irregular’ and ‘illicit’ confused). They do not recognize the authority of the Pope or the Magisterium and cannot be disciplined nor ‘laicized’ by the RCC. So far as they are concerned the Pope is Bishop of Rome only and has no larger jurisdiction that any other Bishop need recognize. (They realize of course that the other bishops of the RCC DO recognize the Pope’s jurisdiction–they simply believe that other Bishops are not morally obliged to do so. I think this is a fair characterization of their position here).

We have a lot of loonies running around the USA calling themselves “Independent” or “Old” Catholic bishops. The size of their congregation (if any) is generally in reverse proportion to the honorifics in their titles.

The only North American group that has ties to the Old Catholic Church in Europe is the Polish National Catholic Church.

All the rest are most likely invalid and made up.

[quote=katherine2]We have a lot of loonies running around the USA calling themselves “Independent” or “Old” Catholic bishops. The size of their congregation (if any) is generally in reverse proportion to the honorifics in their titles.

The only North American group that has ties to the Old Catholic Church in Europe is the Polish National Catholic Church.

All the rest are most likely invalid and made up.
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Katherine,

The Polish National Catholic Church no longer has ties to the Old Catholic Church of the Utrecht Confession. It broke with them formally some time ago, although the connection between the two has been only tenuous for many decades and the PNCC in America generally has not identified itself as an Old Catholic Church, preferring to look on itself as constituting a unique entity (although it did rely on Utrecht for its episcopal origins).

However, that said, most of the other Churches in the US that label themselves as “Old Catholics” or cite Old Catholic origins and claim that those originated in the Utrecht Confession do in fact have their origins there, although they are no longer in communion with it. To describe most as no longer in the mainstream of Old Catholicism would be accurate; to say that they are “invalid and made up” is patently hyperbole and inaccurate.

While I agree that the size of many of these bodies is in inverse ratio to the honorific titles by which their primates and hierarchs style themselves and there are certainly as many as not which are worshipping in a basement rec room cum altar and designated as a cathedral, not all are and the trappings of the place of worship are not necessarily an indicator of the holiness of what transpires there. To apply a wholesale label of “loonies” to those in these Churches is uncharitable at best and ignores the fact that there exist among these bodies persons who are well-intended and whose sole interest is in bringing God to the faithful of their congregations.

Certainly, the “independent/ autocephalus” movement has its share of persons operating on the fringe of reality, those there to play ecclesiastical “dress-up”, those whose primary motivation is to selfishly accomodate aberrant doctrinal precepts which are not acceptable within Catholicism (or Orthodoxy, as the same types of movements are prevalent there, as well), and even those whose goals are financially suspect. However, there are also those who are there because they believe that their consciences, however misguided we may perceive their interpretation to be, have lead them to undertake this mission.

Reality is that there are significant numbers of “independent” and “autocephalous” and “Old” Catholic bodies which have, somewhere in their episcopal genealogies, a remnant of validity in apostolic succession, albeit colored with illicity. This is a function of the Catholic outlook on apostolic succession versus that of the Orthodox, who effectively strip a hierarch of his episcopal authority once he is out of communion with recognized canonical authority.

Many years,

Neil

[quote=Joe Kelley]A validly, even if illicitly, ordained bishop is a bishop forever, with power to ordain new bishops.
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There is a ritual for what is called the “Degradation of a Bishop” which removes all his episcopal powers. It has interesting elements to it, such as scrapping his finger nails to remove the grace imparted by the chrism.

This was promulgated by Pope Benedict XIV in 1862 and in the Roman Pontifical.

When he promulgated this ritual, Pope Benedict obviously felt that it was necessary. He envisioned the possibility that a bishop could disgrace himself so thoroughly, and abuse his office so blatantly, that the Holy See would have no choice but to remove him. Such a bishop would not be allowed to resign quietly “for reasons of health;” he would not be transferred to a titular see in the Sahara; he would not be “promoted” to a meaningless desk job at the Vatican. Instead, he would be stripped of his office and as the word says -“de-graded” - stripped of his rank (gradus) and returned to the rank (gradus) of the laity.


Forty years I loathed that generation; I said: "This people’s heart goes astray; they do not know my ways."Therefore I swore in my anger: “They shall never enter my rest.”

Is this a reference to the forty years since Vatican II? :confused:

[quote=eleusis]Does anyone know what if anything is being done to stop the spread of the so called “Reformed Catholic” Church movement in the USA? I mean if these self-styled bishops were summarily laisized that might nip this heresy in the bud. When I read the statement of principles I about had a cow. Any comments? Please review these links:

www.holyinnocents.com/Statement%20Principles.pdf

www.holyinnocents.com/THE%20APOSTOLIC%20SUCCESSION%20OF%20THE%20REFORMED%20CATHOLIC%20CHURCH.pdf

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I’ll look at the materials (esp. the first) in more detail later, when my eyes aren’t glazed over. It looks like plain, good old fashioned heresy, and I wouldn’t touch it with a 10’ pole!
A serious read beyond the first couple of pages would only reveal the extent and the seriousness of the heresy.

Meanwhile, don’t go near these people, no matter how valid their orders might look.

Also, where’s the mention of SIN and the necessity of Christ’s Sacrifice for our salvation! And, what happened to the Priest’s SACERDOTAL Ministry??

In Him, Michael

[quote=Fr Ambrose]There is a ritual for what is called the “Degradation of a Bishop” which removes all his episcopal powers. It has interesting elements to it, such as scrapping his finger nails to remove the grace imparted by the chrism.

This was promulgated by Pope Benedict XIV in 1862 and in the Roman Pontifical.

When he promulgated this ritual, Pope Benedict obviously felt that it was necessary. He envisioned the possibility that a bishop could disgrace himself so thoroughly, and abuse his office so blatantly, that the Holy See would have no choice but to remove him. Such a bishop would not be allowed to resign quietly “for reasons of health;” he would not be transferred to a titular see in the Sahara; he would not be “promoted” to a meaningless desk job at the Vatican. Instead, he would be stripped of his office and as the word says -“de-graded” - stripped of his rank (gradus) and returned to the rank (gradus) of the laity.


Forty years I loathed that generation; I said: "This people’s heart goes astray; they do not know my ways."Therefore I swore in my anger: “They shall never enter my rest.”

Is this a reference to the forty years since Vatican II? :confused:
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Oh! Thank God!

At least they can DO SOMETHING with this heretic!

I remember when PECUSA started having problems with BASIC HERESY and was absolutely powerless to do anything about it! I was still in PECUSA then, as was my father and a whole bunch of other people I knew.

If Pope John Paul II needs a messenger willing to deliver the “bad news” in a fashion that will be understood, I’m volunteering. I’ve seen these types ruin one Church already.

I don’t care if I’m not a Catholic yet!

In Him, Michael

Pages 5 & 6 pretty much say it all. They might as well be any other liberal Protestant church. They certainly are not in line with Catholic teaching except perhaps in love, but they are too gooey and soft on homosexual marriages. God save us from their version of “compassion”. I wouldn’t darken their door… :twocents:

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