Refuting Baptist Claims 3


#1

So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one.

Another thing my dad told him was that somewhere in the Bible it says that God doesn’t like rituals and repetition and that there’s nothing more repetitious and ritualistic than the Catholic Church. What bible verse is this and how do we defend Catholic rituals (probably he means blessing water, the mass, using the incense on the altar and people etc.) and I think by repetition I think he means the rosary or maybe how every mass is the same routine.


#2

If he thinks repetition is disingenuous…then he better not say “I love you” more than once in a lifetime to any individual huh? lol

Where does he get that repition and ritual is a bad thing ? in the old testament God prescribes specific rituals to His people that are to be done anytime someone sinned, or on specific days during the calendar year perpetually. Jesus was a devout Jew and LOVED the temple…He would have followed the rituals and the calendar year feasts and religious holidays Himself! In the book of revelation…it is said the angels are around God saying " holy, holy, holy" over and over and over again! Lol, where does he get repetition and ritual is bad ? All the little rituals in the catholic church are there because A it was passed down from the jewish faith (holy water to bless self at door…jews had pools they would clense themselves with before entering the temple, the priest sprinkling water on the people to bless them…the jewish priest would sprinkle the blood of sacrificed animals on the people! … candles…always used in the jewish temple… holy images in the church…God had the people form images to help turn their minds and hearts to heaven example: when God asked them to form cheribum angles to be placed on the holy of holies and this stuff goes on and on and on.

Does not your dad keep sunday holy, or attend some kind of service on a ritual basis ? do they not have SOME form of organization and flow to their service ? lol…then he better not point the finger.

I’m pretty sure he’s referring to the scripture passage where Jesus says not to prayer repetitiously like the hypocrites…

the reason why we say "I love you " over and over, and why we re-experience religious holidays over and over each year, or follow a rubric in our ritual services…is we are finite creatures in time and space and want the chance to go deeper and deeper every year, at every service, during every holiday (we’re not like an angel who lives outside of time and when they make a decision it is PERFECT and they’re all in 100%). We’re not just repeating stuff or following blindly. We’re falling deeper and deeper in love with God, we get a chance to re-live the moments of Christ’s life every year and grow deeper and deeper within them! Why would your dad have a problem with any of that ?

I think you’ll find that your dad doesn’t like the Catholic church because he doesn’t understand it…that’s usually the case.

God bless, hope this helps!


#3

These may help you out.
Is repetitious prayer bad?
Vain Repetition

Also, if repeating prayers is so bad, then why pray for something more than once? Also, we have the example of Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane where he repeated the same prayer 3 times.


#4

Lastly, I wanted to add in regards to our rituals, and all the bells, incense, candles etc etc… have him look at the book of revelation which reveals the worship found in Heaven itself! . There’s repetition, incense being offererd, candles, an alter, and “a lamb standing as though once slain!” …It’s describeing the Mass…catholic worship itself!!!.


#5

First, I would not try to refute him directly, but do it indirectly.

You can start by citing the prayer of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus said the same prayer three times, from Matt 26:
43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

So here, it looks like Jesus is violating or contradicting what He said about vain repetition?
Have him explain it, then go from there, about what is vain repetition, and that not all repetition is vain.
fisheaters.com/vainrepetitions.html


#6

Right.I forgot about this…rev 4:

6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“‘Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,’**

who was, and is, and is to come.”

So there is vain repetition in Heaven…:eek:**


#7

I believe the scripture against repetitive prayer is actually against meaningless repetition. Especially repetition that is done without attention, devotion, and piety.

It did not mean that we could never ever repeat a prayer. Group worship services would be almost impossible without them!


#8

I think he’s referring to Matt 6:7 when Jesus tells us not to use meaningless repetition as the pagans do.

If that were the case, why would Jesus give us The Lord’s Prayer a few verses later and tell us to pray it? The key is the word “meaningless.” Repetition is not forbidden, meaningless repetition is forbidden.

With all due respect I have to wonder if your father has ever read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy. They are loaded with rituals which God imposed on the Jews. Now we are no longer under the Jewish ritual law but it still proves that God has absolutely nothing against ritual.


#9

Sort of like the repetition of going to Church every Sunday and Wednesday to hear preaching and an altar call? What Christ is referring to is the babbling of Pagans and the sort of calling on the god again and again (see Elijah and the prophets of Baal).

Goes you dad pray? I bet he addresses God the same way every time and says something akin to “in the name of Jesus” at the end, what about that repetition?

This is silly. Anything we do over and over again (going to work, washing our bodies, brushing our teeth) we are said to do “religiously” because religion’s stock and trade is repetition. To object tot he rosary or the Lord’s prayer, aside from an ignorance of history, also shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what religion is, and a level of hypocrisy about his own religious practices that he does but refuses to see so that he can point that finger at Catholics.

It’s ironic at best.

Just gently remind your brother that this sort of complaint about the Catholics Church actually falls completely on its head with the slightest second examination, and tell him to rethink his direction. As one who has journeyed from a Baptist background to the Catholic Church I can tell you firsthand the forgiveness and mercy of Christ’s Church is not worth trading for any social convention or acceptance by any majority or whatever reason he may be feeling pressured to make the change.


#10

pull out the rug and emphasize attitude of the heart in worship.

What is condemned is meaningless going through the motions without meaning.


#11

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