You do not think acting morally to our prisoners and our enemy is not dialog? You do not think that there would be some impact on all their hate and skewed understanding of their faith when we do not act like they expect us to, like how their religious leaders tell them we will act, but instead act in a moral manner? Beat a man who already hates you and he will still hate you, beat the man enough and all he will ever do is hate you.
We are on the same page and in total agreement. My point is that we do not understand so we cannot move forward. If we remain totally faithful, then we trust in God and not get involved at all.
The question is, should Catholics sit on the sidelines and allow groups like ISIS to over run areas where we could have influenced the outcome? Will we repeat what we did during WW2 and help those in need as best we can (hiding them in churches and our houses, etc) through non-violent means? Who will play the role of the “Allies” and defeat the military evil that is ISIS or others like them? If we have the means to prevent evil, do we have a duty to our fellow man to take actions to prevent the evil or do we take a spiritual stance and pray?:shrug:
I believe there’s a report that says 70% of the detainees released from GITMO were found on the field of battle after their release. We don’t know what happened to the other 30% because we’ve stopped looking for them; we don’t know where they’ve gone or what they’re doing. While I believe your adage about beating a man until all he can do is hate you, we must face the possibility (not necessarily the reality) there are those who will not STOP hating us regardless of how we treat them.
Some who were tortured were innocent.
I’m not trying to be snarky but can you tell me which ones were innocent by name? Do you know how to separate the guilty from the innocent after a gun battle? How do you divine a person’s innocence after field intelligence gathered indicate that person was conducting enemy action against us?
Humans aren’t perfect; even in our own justice system, the process fails and innocent people end up in jail. To live in this world, we have a choice of actions: do something or do nothing. Do nothing and maybe nothing else bad happens. When we chose to do something, whatever we choose to do will never be perfect. Only God has that Omnipotence and Omniscience. For humans, we have to live with the consequences of our actions. God Bless us all.
I don’t know the names. It was reported in the NY Times, p. A15, dec. 11, 2014, that the president of Afghanistan, Ashraf Ghani, said that the principles of human rights have been violated. He also said that some of those tortured were proven to be entirely innocent.
Generally, I am opposed to torturing innocent people. IMHO, this sets a bad precedent. If the Americans torture innocent people, then this gives an excuse for those holding American hostages to reciprocate.
Or in other words- “Kill them all and let God sort it out.” Yeah, pretty sure that’s not a Catholic approach to morality.
Have they even released all of the names yet? Also, the other poster is going with the rather erroneous assumption that a) US and international law operates under a “guilty until proven otherwise” system and b) the intel reports that he cites (which apparently are somehow exempt from being subject to human error) as proof of guilt aren’t actually designed to prove or disprove guilt.
“While the CIA has represented in public and classified settings that it detained “fewer than one hundred” individuals, the Committee’s review of CIA records indicates that the total number of CIA detainees was at least 119. Internal CIA documents indicate that inadequate record keeping made it impossible for the CIA to determine how many individuals it had detained.” (SSCI Torture Report, p.14)
“While the CIA acknowledged to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) in February 2006 that it had wrongly detained five individuals throughout the course of its detention program, a review of CIA records indicates that at least 21 additional individuals, or a total of 26 of the 119 (22 percent) CIA detainees identified in this Study, did not meet the MON standard for detention. (footnote 32)” (SSCI Torture Report, p.15-16)
(footnote 32) They include Abu Hudhaifa, who was subjected to ice water baths and 66 hours of standing sleep deprivation before being released because the CIA discovered he was likely not the person he was believed to be
(W ASHINGTON 51303 Muhammad Khan, who, like Zarmein, was among detainees about whom the CIA acknowledged knowing "very little"
1528 another case of mistaken identity (HEADQUARTERS l l i m ); Shaistah Habi^llahKl^^ his brother, Sayed Habib, was the subject of fabrications by KSM
(HEADQUARTER^^^^HH^^^^^^^^I); Hai^Ghalgi^lKM^is detained as “useful leverage” against a family member
Naz^ir Ali, an “intellectually challenged” individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member
xivment of $||||| mil |iillii i iiiin in I 33693
wrong place the wrong time^jflBHI^I^^BH
33322 Jan, whowasde^ for using a satellite phone, traces on which "revealed no derogatory information^jlHH 1542
two individuals —Mohammad al-Shomaila and Salah Nasir Salim Ali—on whom derogatory information was “speculative” (email from: [REDACTED]Uo: [REDACTEDl, 1REDACTED], and [REDACTED]; subjety: Backgrounders; date: April 19, 2006;|^^^^^| 17411 ALEC
|; undated document titled. “Talking Points for HPSCI about Former CIA Detainees”);
two individuals who were discovered to be foreign government sources prior to being rendered to CIA custody, and later determined to be former CIA
2185 ([REDACTED]); ALEC| ([REDACTED]); HEADQUARTERS B||H(IrS)ACTED])); seven individuals thought to be travelling to Iraq to join al-Qa’ida who were detained based on claims that were "thin but cannot be ignore£^en^^ to: [REDACTED|; cc: [REDACTED], [REDACTED],
[REDACTED], [REDACTED], [REDACTED], [REDACTED]; subject: Request Chief/CTC Approval to Apprehend and Detain Individuals Departing Imminently for Iraq to Fight Against US Forces; date: September 16, 2003);
and Bismullah, who was mistakenly arrested and later released with $ H and told not to speak about his experience 46620
For example, the Committee did not include among the 26 individuals wrongfully detained: Dr. Hikmat Nafi Shaukat, even though it was determined that he was not involved in CBRN efforts and his involvement with al-QaMda members was limited to perst)nal relationships with former neighbors
30414 Karim, cika Asat Sar Jan, about whom uiestions
he may have been slandered by a rival tribal faction (|
detainees); Arsala Khan, who suffered disturbing hallucinations after 56 hours of standing sleep deprivation, after which the CIA determined thath^|doefuiot^^ the subject involved in… cuiTent plans or activities against l^M^e^<>;ineU^cilities" (^^^IHIHlliiiHH (20I006Z OCT 03); HEADQUARTERS UtM (lll^mmillllllll); and
Janat Gul, who also suffered “frightful” hallucinations following sleep deprivation and about whom the chief of the detention facility wrote, “[t]here simply is no ‘smoking gun’ that we can refer to that would justify our continued holding of [Janat Gul] at a site such as [DETENTION SITE BLACK]”
(Sorry for the messy cut/paste, but that is how it came from the PDF and I don’t have time to clean it up. Can be found on page 16)
“IX. Appendix 2: CIA Detainees from 2002 - 2008”, on pages 458-461 lists the names of the 119 detainees as determined by the study.
I believe we are on a parallel path and not soon to meet: we both believe extreme methods of interrogation is not what God would have us do but we differ in how we approach the issue. I pray that God bless us both and give us more wisdom so that we can find a way to be more like Christ.
Respectfully, no, that is not what I’m suggesting and I do not believe I hear this coming from any other Catholic unless they hold radical views of their own. What I do believe, as I have stated from the beginning of my comments, is that we are imperfect and lack the understanding of how to communicate with these radicals. Without communication, there’s less probability of understanding. Without understanding, there’s less chance of negotiations. With less chance of negotiations, there’s a greater probability of continued violent conflict. The longer the violent conflict continues, the greater the chances of atrocities being committed until one side or the other takes drastic action. This is the scenario we faced in the Cold War that led to MAD. In this case, we face an opponent who apparently WANTS to destroy the world and does not have the revulsion to killing their own people to achieve their goals. Unprecedented which leads to my quandary of how do we address this situation? God Bless you.
The NY Times today has a frontpage headline article concerning the available data on the 26 people held in error.
Yes, they might perform a retaliation, we certainly haven’t seen them behead any Westerners, oops.
Let us not forget, we do have a right to self-defense and that includes a Government’s right as well. I’m cross-posting this admittedly but it is true. It is but an issue to consider, not that it is necessarily correct.
263 The legitimate defense of persons *and societies* is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor…. The one is intended, the other is not.”
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: “If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful…. Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.”
Again, apologies for double-posting this info.
Per Oliver North:
North: I did, and I was a SERE instructor. So, I’ve waterboarded people.
Jeffrey: So this was routine?
North: This was--Terry, none of us thought it was torture. We all knew it was very difficult, certainly, very uncomfortable. But we also knew something that every American taken hostage by these people knows. Most of them are worth more alive than dead. And until we revealed what we were doing and those enhanced interrogation techniques, they worked.
Jeffrey: Ollie, you personally underwent waterboarding in your training as a U.S. Marine–
Jeffrey: --somewhere along the line?
North: And I did it to others, Terry.
Jeffrey: And you did it to others. So, you don’t think it is an intrinsically evil act–
Jeffrey: --to pour water over someone’s face?
Like the pre-Christian Roman Emperors, the U.S. is forcing Idol Worship using our tax dollars!? Disgusting!
I certainly respect our Muslim brothers and I’d believe so-called Moderate Muslims would not find fault with destroying beliefs held by the likes of Al Shabab, Boko Haram or Al Qaeda or members of any other religion that use their beliefs to destructive means.
You can not believe in the validity of beliefs of some radicals?
Thank you for the follow up. Yes, we commit errors. Did the Times report how many we detained that were not held in error?
Only works as a defense against waterboarding being deemed torture if one assumes the intent of the acts is the same for the SERE students as it is for the prisoners that underwent it.