Religious laws for secular countries.

How would a devoted Christian family live and raise their children according to the Christian faith (keeping the 10 commandments, moderate clothing, no drunkenness, etc). :blush:

In my recent summer visit to one western country, I got a big shock :eek:, I have noticed that nudity (both boys & girls), losing virginity/adultery, and drunkenness (to name a few) is a common practice :(, even they are encouraging those practices in the movies, TV/bus stops ads!, although it’s possible to have all the above in an Islamic country, but they will not be “public” so you have some sort of control.

If parents have no religious guidance to follow (like the OT law) then children will be so vulnerable especially at their young age, they need some sort of law to protect them.

I was thinking of that for a while for some members of my family & close friends, I want to introduce Christianity to them, but I know they would backfire on me because of the above reasons, so I would suggest to them to raise their children according to the “OT/Jewish or Islamic laws” and after collage (23 old) they should introduce Christianity to them.

What to do think?, Or any suggestions?

These are not just religious laws but moral laws instilled in us by virtue of being created spiritually in the image of God. We know what is right and wrong regardless of what secular laws, public opinion, and social norms are at any given time in history. That is to say that “I didn’t know” won’t be a good defence at the final judgement (Not that there’ll be any defence against truth).

If you have lived all of life in an Islamic society, then it’s probably hard to internalize the reality of the Western world where Christianity no longer has any significant effect on the larger culture.

I’m not saying I agree, mind you, but the fact is that here parents must raise their children to recognize that as Christians, we are “in this world, but not of it.” We try to shelter small children from direct temptations in the age of their innocence, but as they grow older and able to discern, we have to acknowledge the existence of the larger society around us that does NOT respect God or Natural Law. By that time, they should have enough recognition that Natural Law exists because it is GOOD, not because of arbitrary declaration.

Christianity understands that while God is beyond our complete understanding, He is not completely inscrutable. He is rational, good and holy. Since we are created in His image (though now fallen), we are able to see some aspects of how that goodness infuses the world and recognize where people have chosen sin instead of God. We can learn (with the assistance of Grace) to choose good, choose God over our fallen inclinations, even if the world around us delights in fallenness.

Our environment certainly affects us (more profoundly than most westerners know), but it does not have to dominate us. With Grace, we can be more than our fallenness.

How suppose “we know” if no one taught us what is right from wrong?

What about changing that from “try” to “must”?

but as they grow older and able to discern, we have to acknowledge the existence of the larger society around us that does NOT respect God or Natural Law.

Wouldn’t that be too late, when children would have fallen into many sins? shouldn’t we protect then in advance?

Our environment certainly affects us (more profoundly than most westerners know), but it does not have to dominate us. With Grace, we can be more than our fallenness.

That was a very nice statement, GOD bless you.:slight_smile:

Sam all I can say is that I had the same reaction as you when I first moved to the US (and I don’t come I refuse to live in a big city and keep my daughter in private school and teach her what is right and what is wrong. I also surround her by people who share our values and I don’t buy too much into the typical culture style and I am hoping that will work.

  1. Sure, if you like. As long as you don’t imagine that your efforts can achieve infallible success. Sin has a stubborn way of sneaking in among humans.

  2. Yes, at home where one has control. This is why I believe it is better for small kids NOT to watch commercial TV, for them to be cared for by mom, dad or a close and trusted relative (instead of the $10/hour KidKare employee), catholic schools are better than public, etc. But there comes a point where you delude yourself if you imagine that your children will not become aware that your family is not like other families. IMO, it’s better to start acknowledging early that others don’t have the same beliefs we do. Protecting innocence can’t be an excuse for hiding from reality. Kids will sniff that out and rebel. If there is never a moment where they suddenly discover forbidden fruit that looks juicy and tasty they are less likely to react badly. Better for them to know early on that there are things out there that look attractive, but are in fact deadly spiritual poison.

Recent secular research has indicated that very young babies have a sense of right and wrong, good and bad.

Young children and even babies demonstrate attributes such as generosity, empathy and a sense of justice, indicating that far from being born as clean slates, humans seem to have innate altruistic tendencies and are able to make moral choices at a remarkably young age.

For millennia, philosophers and religious thinkers have grappled with the fundamental question of whether humanity is inherently good or evil. Now, science suggests the answer is a bit of both. Psychologists are finding that humans start life equipped with both good and bad tendencies, but how we turn out is largely a result of our surroundings.

A new documentary airing tonight on CBC’s The Nature of Things offers a fascinating exploration of this relatively new and growing area of research. Babies: Born to be Good? follows the work of researchers in Canada, the U.S. and China as they test children’s inherent abilities to distinguish right from wrong.

Among the highlights, the program shows how three- and five-month-old babies react to characters of a puppet show at the lab of University of British Columbia psychologist Kiley Hamlin. The babies demonstrate a clear preference for puppets that share, instinctively grabbing for them or looking at them instead of the more selfish characters. The film also captures two-year-old Anastasia as she takes great pains to climb out of a tub full of toys to help Harvard psychologist Felix Warneken pick up a dropped paper clip. Anastasia does this spontaneously and repeatedly, each time he drops the paper clip beyond his reach.

And in a particularly endearing segment, the documentary shows how two-and-a-half-year-old Tang Tang struggles to deceive University of Toronto professor Kang Lee in a game of hide-the-candy. Tang Tang’s inability to lie underscores the complex mental gymnastics involved in deception; it requires withholding the truth, recognizing that others do not know what you know, and inventing a lie – something most children do not master until between the ages of 2 and 4.

GOD be with you on your intense mission in the west, and you better prepare her to expect the worst later on the at the university, look at the below evil incident happened at what is called even a holy name “Saint Mary University” :eek:, that horrendous incident gone viral in the Arabic media:

Well the West in general, until relatively recently (the Cultural Revolution of the 1950s and 1060s), did espouse a much more moral culture based on Christianity (even though intellectuals, academia, and the media were beginning to sink their fangs into it).

In some countries, Christianity even has an official capacity - Lutheranism continues to be the state-sanctioned faith in Denmark, Anglicanism is still the official religion of England, and until 1984, Catholicism was the Italian state religion.

The great irony today though is that in those countries in which Christianity still holds some kind of official capacity, that is where Christianity has lost its influence most!

It should also be noted that it’s not only that the parents haven’t been instructed, but the culture in which we live does not encourage morality. A sizeable portion - if not the majority - of Westerners no longer have problems with nudity, excessive drinking, divorce, and sexual promiscuity. These are accepted as normal. It’s not that people don’t know that Christianity considers them wrong - they just don’t care, and it’s not considered relevant in this* “modern, secular, and progressive”* society.

There are some concerned parents who, in an effort to keep this kind of culture away from their children, turn to private or home schooling to raise their children in an environment more to their liking (although it’s not necessarily enough anymore). The public schools in general can be a general mess, depending on where you live.

But this morality you have seen, Sam, is the new norm. And it will only get worse.

Protecting + Educating, telling them right from wrong, telling them look at what happened in the “Saint Mary University” telling them that it was an awful sin to do that.

The sense by itself is not enough!, else we would not have OT laws.

:frowning: unfortunate!, the prince of this world has left no place for righteous people, we need JESUS second coming ASAP…


I understand your concerns. I don’t necessarily share them, but I understand them, and I respect your view. Personally, I worry more about the general lack of compassion that pervades western society (or the U.S. at least) than the other things you mentioned. I worry about the extreme intolerance found on both the far left and the far right, in both the hyper-secular and the ultra-religious.

And as an American, I get a little nervous when people float the idea of imposing the laws of a specific religion(s) on the greater population. It doesn’t fit the profile of a country that has in theory – if not always in practice – a “live and live” spirit. Granted, you’re coming from a different country and culture, so our difference in opinion shouldn’t be surprising :slight_smile:

Christianity doesn’t have a legal code of law set out for any one nation, what it has is a gospel to live out in spite of any one nation or empire. Christian puritans do not dominate the west, it is secular and from that follows a liberty which allows things Christians would also consider evil, immodesty and etc.

But why raise them according to the Old testament law? Are not the commands of Christ or Paul good enough? The thing about Christinaity is that it isn’t concerned (unlike with islam) on creating Christian government, but rather fleeing the world or living in the world apart from the world. Thats not to suggest Christians shouldn’t stand up against evil in politics, they do, the majority just don’t take Christianity for granted any more.

:slight_smile: No I did not mean imposing the religion law on the country population, but imposing it on someone’s family.

My point that to control (through religious law) our kids so that they don’t end up practicing the sins of the greater population.

If they were enough then some Christian sects would not have allowed same-sex marriage in their Churches, specially when it’s mentioned in (1 Corinthians 6:9-10):

"Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality, no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom. "

But they need more deterrent controls like the “Sodom and Gomorrah” incident in the OT.

Don’t despair. It may look like secular forces have won the battle because of things like gay marriage, or promiscuity, abortion, etc. But no cause is ever lost because no cause is ever truly won. Secularists will not ultimately have the energy to sustain these things because all these things are based on fundemental mistakes about who people ( we) really are. The Church, on the other hand, is on the side of truth. The truth doesn’t wear out or go out of style. It can be ignored for a time but it will eventually be heard. Even if Christ does not return for a thousand years.

That wasn’t much of a deterrent, though, was it? People sinned before, people have sinned plenty since.

Maybe it’s not about deterring with fear, but rather transforming with love instead.

You really think those churches which allow it actually read Paul or understanding anything about the tradition of the church? Christ came to free us from the law, not bind us to it and to raise one as a jew is to fundamentally deny Christ freeing men from the law.

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