Renaissance Art expert needed!

#1

OK, this question has nothing to do with "Catholic living," I suppose, and still less with popular media (though painting used to be a popular medium...). But I can't find any thread on the forums that sounds anything like what I need to find out (is there a 'Catholic high culture' thread? Catholicism and the arts?). Perhaps some "living Catholic" out there can help me. People on these forums are so helpful.

I have a question about a Renaissance painting shown at this link:

dobragaleria.pl/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1023

I'm not sure I can put a link in a post, but there it is.

I'm helping a Polish priest write a homily. He mentions a painting by Paolo Veronese of the raising of the son of the widow at Nain. I can only find about three paintings of that subject online, none of them by Veronese. When I searched for the title of the painting in Polish, I got only one website - the one linked above - which identifies the painting as by Veronese (or Caliari). The strange thing about the painting is that no 'son' is visible, only a woman on her knees, supported by two others, apparently asking Jesus for something.

I've searched the Web Gallery of Art to no avail. Wikipedia is of no help. I've even done the old-fashioned thing and looked in various art books on Renaissance art - nothing.

Is anyone out there an expert on Renaissance art? Can you identify the painter and possibly the painting as well?

The painting is important to a point in the homily, so we've got to get this right. Also, I should come up with a slide of it. The one in the link above has a word going across it, and since I can't find the true author (I'm assuming it's not Veronese), I can't find another version of it on the Web.

Any help would be appreciated.

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#2

The issue of blood. Christ healing the woman with the issue of blood, By Paolo Veronese (Caliari).

I'll see if I can find a painting of Christ raising the widow's son.

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#3

This painting hangs in the Kunsthistorisches Musuem in Vienna, Austria.

The son is in the lower left corner of the painting.

khm.at/en/kunsthistorisches-museum/collections/picture-gallery/italy-15th-16th-centuries/

Top line of thumbnails, third from the left - in German it will say 'Erweckung des Jünglings zu Nain" (under the thumbnail it says - Paolo Caliari, gen. Veronese
Erweckung des Jünglings zu Nain).

Click on thumbnail for more info.

Hope this helps. :)

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#4

Thanks for both answers. I got more hits for the painting under the 'woman with the issue of blood' than I did for the 'widow's son' title. In fact, the priest told me that he found it in the museum in Vienna, but I couldn't find the image on the site for that museum (no way am I going to try to type the name of the museum from memory - kultursomething - the one you named, anyway).

A problem I have with the 'Nain' title for the picture is that it doesn't have the right context. There's no funeral procession (as in other paintings of the subject), no bier. The 'son' in other pictures is usually depicted as rather young, but in the questionable picture, the son is nearly bald, and in fact looks older than the woman who is supposed to be his mother. Also he's being supported under the arms by someone, rather than looking like he just rose from the dead and is very much alive, or is putting aside funeral wrappings or something to indicate that this is the raising of a person from the dead.

Here's some information about the 'issue of blood' painting, and it describes it quite well.

Christ Healing the Woman with the Issue of Blood
Collection National Trust for Scotland (Brodick Castle)
Artist Maganza, Alessandro (Italian painter and draftsman, 1556-after 1630)
Previously attributed to Veronese, Paolo (Italian painter and draftsman, 1528-1588)

Date Earliest possibly about 1576

Date Latest possibly about 1632

Professor Peter Humphrey in The Age of Titian identifies the subject as from the gospel accounts of Christ healing the woman with the issue of blood (Matthew 9. 20-22; Mark 5. 25-34; Luke 8. 43-48). He writes:

Jesus was moving among a jostling throng of his disciples towards the house of Jairus, an elder of the synagogue, when he felt a faint touch on the hem of his garment, whereupon the afflicted woman was instantly cured. When he challenged her to come forward, she humbly knelt before him, and he told her 'Daughter, they faith hath made thee whole.' The exotically-dressed figure near the right of the composition, clearly meant as a Jew, may be identified as Jairus, whose dead or dying daughter Jesus had been called to heal. The porch on the left marks the entrance to Jairus's house, where Jesus will perform his next miracle.

The painting comprises a freize-like composition, with a dense clustering of figures on a narrow proscenium. Christ, positioned centre right, opens his arms to the afflicted woman, who kneels at his feet in a yellow cloak. The house of Jairus is represented by a stone doorway, flanked by round pillars, to the far left of the composition. A woman stands in the doorway, pointing a crippled man on crutches towards Christ. Mounted on the wall to either side of the door is a pair of escutcheons. These are thought to belong to the painting's original owner and his wife; however attempts by Humphrey to identify the arms among those of noble Vicentine families of the period have so far been unsuccessful.

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#5

[quote="Pioro, post:4, topic:200167"]
Thanks for both answers. I got more hits for the painting under the 'woman with the issue of blood' than I did for the 'widow's son' title. In fact, the priest told me that he found it in the museum in Vienna, but I couldn't find the image on the site for that museum (no way am I going to try to type the name of the museum from memory - kultursomething - the one you named, anyway).

[/quote]

I can understand that - which is why I gave you this link. I wouldn't want to have to remember that name either! ;)

khm.at/en/kunsthistorisches-museum/collections/picture-gallery/italy-15th-16th-centuries/

Well, good luck with this. Keep us posted.

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#6

Yeah, I followed your link to the Kunst..., and found the picture, but I also found this linkhttp://www.biblical-art.com/artwork.asp?id_artwork=10518&showmode=Full. It gives the same picture, but calls it the healing of the woman with the issue of blood.

It would seem that there's a picture in Scotland that's very like the one I keep finding, but the description gives more details - a woman standing in a doorway, a man on crutches, a richly-clad figure. Problem is, I can't find an image to go with the description of the picture in Scotland.

It's hard to argue with the museum in Vienna. But I'm still bothered by the lack of context. Pictures of biblical subjects generally are 'readable,' and so other images I've found have clearly shown a youngish man in a context of a funeral. One had a picture of a very long funeral procession, people in black, and the young man on the bier in the foreground. I found one by Domenico Fiasella which shows a clearly startled young man coming out from under white cloths. The people around him are also startled - as anyone would be. He had been stretched out on a litter - you can see the poles for carrying the litter. Another by Louisa Anne, Marchioness of Waterford also shows a young man on a litter. You know immediately what those pictures are about.

In the one in the Viennese museum, the center of attention is the 'grateful mother,' but come on? If someone sat up in his coffin during his funeral procession and was fully alive, everyone would be looking at him, not the mother. It makes far more sense to me that the picture is the woman with the issue of blood, because the eyes of the people around (those that we can see) are focused on her, not on the miracle-boy. In fact, when I first looked at the image, I thought it couldn't be a 'grateful' mother after the fact, but the widow pleading for her son to be raised (which isn't scriptural). She just doesn't look grateful.

The homily makes a point about the 'grateful mother' and Jesus being particularly responsive to the needs of the mother, so the homily 'needs' that picture. But when I look at it, I don't see a woman who is looking grateful. I see a woman who looks like she's explaining something - the woman with the issue of blood.

If I take the priest, the congregation and myself into consideration, I am probably the only person involved here who really cares about such mysteries and controversies, and getting it exactly right. I suppose in the end, if we use the Veronese picture, the point of the homily will be taken and no one will be the wiser.

No, wait. They'll be wiser because the homily is good. Of course. But they won't be wiser... um, never mind. :blush:

If anyone out there can solve the mystery, I'll sleep better, though!

It's just amazing that I can sit here in Poland and throw out a question and generous people across the ocean help so quickly. Reminds me of the old days, when I used to go to the reference librarian (do they still exist in the US?) and ask questions and she'd find the information for me. No such species in Poland - at least for a very poor speaker of Polish - so the Internet is a sort of miracle in itself.

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#7

Here are a couple of other paintings by other artists. Just in case you want to use them.

radio.lds.org/mc_images/show%20images/LM3heal.jpg

sites.google.com/site/ldsmeetinghouselibrarypicsot/_/rsrc/1237682823093/Home/New-Testament-Pics/Jesus%20Christ%20Blessing%20Jairus%E2%80%99s%20Daughter.62231,215,2-25,7-18.jpg

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#8

Read the account in the OT when Elijah did the same thing. It seems the Gospel writer made a point to connect the two stories by writing 'and gave him to his mother'

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#9

[quote="Pioro, post:6, topic:200167"]
Yeah, I followed your link to the Kunst..., and found the picture, but I also found this linkhttp://www.biblical-art.com/artwork.asp?id_artwork=10518&showmode=Full. It gives the same picture, but calls it the healing of the woman with the issue of blood.

It would seem that there's a picture in Scotland that's very like the one I keep finding, but the description gives more details - a woman standing in a doorway, a man on crutches, a richly-clad figure. Problem is, I can't find an image to go with the description of the picture in Scotland.

It's just amazing that I can sit here in Poland and throw out a question and generous people across the ocean help so quickly. Reminds me of the old days, when I used to go to the reference librarian (do they still exist in the US?) and ask questions and she'd find the information for me. No such species in Poland - at least for a very poor speaker of Polish - so the Internet is a sort of miracle in itself.

[/quote]

I found that one from biblical-art.com also. Yes, it would probably help if the one in Scotland had an image.

I really do hope you get an answer and you are most welcome for the help - little as it may be. I am always glad to jump in and try to help.

Again, good luck and keep us posted. :)

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#10

Thanks Benadam and Ruslan. Benadam, I've added the pictures you sent to my files for future reference. I'll talk it over with the priest and show him other images and let him decide what to do.

You've been a great help!:)

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#11

[quote="Pioro, post:10, topic:200167"]
Thanks Benadam and Ruslan. Benadam, I've added the pictures you sent to my files for future reference. I'll talk it over with the priest and show him other images and let him decide what to do.

You've been a great help!:)

[/quote]

Your'e welcome Pioro. As an artist I enjoyed the effort. My icon is an example of my work. Hope all goes well with the Homily. Peace

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#12

You're welcome, Pioro. :D

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#13

Hello, I am hoping someone can help me. I have found a small image from a painting but would like to know what the complete painting looks like, is titled and who painted it. Can anyone help? Thanks and let me know. Ted

http://www.darksymphonies.com/image.jpg

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#14

Good Day: I send this post becouse maybe you can help me. My wife study Art Theology in the Catholic University at our home town Guatemala City Guatemala Central America, she is preparing her thesis and choose the Passion Of Jesus. There is a web site Catholic Tradition. on this site is a picture of the passion of Christ. My wife and I have tried for months to contact this site only with the intention of investigating the origin of this image without success as it would be of great help in his thesis. She would very grateful with your help. Also i send the link to have more clear what she wants.
catholictradition.org/Passion/passion17.htm

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#15

[quote="oczm, post:14, topic:200167"]
Good Day: I send this post becouse maybe you can help me. My wife study Art Theology in the Catholic University at our home town Guatemala City Guatemala Central America, she is preparing her thesis and choose the Passion Of Jesus. There is a web site Catholic Tradition. on this site is a picture of the passion of Christ. My wife and I have tried for months to contact this site only with the intention of investigating the origin of this image without success as it would be of great help in his thesis. She would very grateful with your help. Also i send the link to have more clear what she wants.
catholictradition.org/Passion/passion17.htm

[/quote]

Hello,

Judging from the quality of the picture (which is not 'high art'), I think you will find that it is an illustration from a devotional book or picture Bible or maybe a religious card. Usually such pictures do not include the name of an author, because they are illustrations commissioned by some religious books or card publisher for a book or for a series of religious cards, etc., and the illustrator (as opposed to an 'artist,' if you know what I mean) is not famous enough to be named.

Since the illustration is in color, I do not suppose it is from the book referenced just below it, which was printed in 1895.

I could not find that particular picture on the Biblical Art on the World Wide Web site (biblical-art.com/biblicalsubject1.asp?id=387). They often post pictures that are illustrations from children's Bibles, etc. but without naming any artist, since whoever made the pictures is usually unknown. Your wife might try looking there for pictures of the Passion. When I searched, I didn't find anything that looked like the picture you've linked to.

For high art, especially Renaissance art, you can try the Web Gallery of Art here: wga.hu/index1.html and search for 'passion' 'crucifixion,' etc. You most certainly will not find there the picture you've linked to, but you may find some other useful pictures.

Strangely, when I run my mouse over the picture, a caption appears saying, 'Christ with the people,' but it seems to be a picture of Christ before Pilate. I did a Google image search for both 'Christ with the people' and 'Christ before Pilate' and this image didn't turn up in the first several pages. It would seem not to be a common image on the web.

It's possible that you have not got any response from the website because the picture is untraceable or they don't know where they got it. Or maybe the site itself is no longer being updated.

There are any number of fine paintings of the same subject. Must it be this one?

If your wife absolutely must have this painting for her thesis, then probably she will have to call it an 'illustration by an unknown artist' and give the url for where she found it. Often things on the web have no reference as to their original source, and if it can't be traced on the web, then in your thesis you just have to give the website where you found the information and leave it at that. In the case of information, this is risky, because the information may be false. But in the case of a picture, your wife should be able to say in her notes that the website did not respond to requests for information about the picture, and give the url for the picture itself. If it's very important to your wife's thesis, she might be able to copy and print it and put it her thesis for reference. It seems highly unlikely that such a picture is under copyright.

Hope this helps.

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#16

Thanks for your reply, you are rigth the theme mane is Christ Before Pilate. The interest in this theme is becouse last year my wife found a very old painting with this theme, when she showed a photo to her companions were so impressed with his humility and serenity of Christ before his judges and the hostile people in their environment. She choose this theme and star study and search more of this, until she found a famous painting in a huge scala and two more in a smaller scala on the web, one day she was comparing the paintings found little differences between all. She found a book Christ Before Pilate writen by Charles M Krutz in this book described the steps as the painter was inspired to make this painting, following the book describe he make small drawings and small paintings. Studying the artist porfile never was a Religious painter, he moved to Paris and meet a baron then he died and the artist married his widow in this time he meets a art dealer the book describe together devised the idea to perforn religious paintings inspired by the Passion of Christ they called Trilogy. But since he made the frist one in 1881 the two star exhibits collected from all major capitals of Europe and the USA by personal gain then sold to wealthy merchant John Wanamaker to his deparment strore in Philadelphia. The purpose was not painting Religious Art it was make a huge profit. The painters mind was distorbed at our discretion he order to take a picture like Christ on the Cross. When we star investigate at museums always have the same awnser your image is a fake copy, another says is a copy becouse is unsigned but to the most famous painters of Religious Art rarely signed his paintings, even one says the face of Christ is the face of the painter. Our big question is for a copy why change some small detalis only when comparing closely, and why all the material found on the web are pencil drawing, reproductions of printing, and modern copies. Even all the material from this painter are not the same change faces, changes scenes, in the 3 paintings the stature of Christ is not the same in one their hands are tied to the back in another are forward, the priest are not equal in the 3 paintings. We asked could this be the original the frame looks have more than 200 years. Thats why my interest in now where was made the image that ask in my frist post. and belive me we spend more than 6 months looking for another oil paint with this theme without success.

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#17

This is very interesting OCZM! You have quite a mystery on your hands!

Is it Charles M. KURTZ or Charles M. Krutz you are writing about? I'm puzzled because I only found two mentions of Charles M. Krutz online: your message here and one link to a painting that apparently was owned by him.

I found a page about Charles M. Kurtz here: aaa.si.edu/collections/charles-m-kurtz-papers-9530/more. It seems to have quite a lot of information. You might find some more mention of the paintings you are looking for in the papers of Charles M. Kurtz. Maybe he wrote something more - a letter to a friend, or an article about the painting in some magazine; maybe he comments somewhere about who bought the painting after Wanamaker acquired it.

The site I've given above says this: Charles M. Kurtz had a wide circle of friends and acquaintances that often overlapped his personal friends and professional colleagues with his career activities. Certain individuals whose names may not be particularly well known, such as the artists, D.F. Hasbrouck, William Morgan and Patty Thum, for example, were both personal and professional friends. Their letters, often seeking Kurtz's help, are informative about their own and Kurtz's careers.

There might be something more in Kurtz's correspondence or other papers that would give you clues about the painting you are researching.

A problem would be that you would probably have to go to the Archives of American Art to see Kurtz's papers 'in person.' However, I think if you search the page I've given you a link to, and open up each section of his papers, you might be able to find out if there's anything useful in his papers. For example, if you click on 'Legal Records' you will find a description of every legal document in Kurtz's papers. If one of them relates to the artist or picture that you are researching... then you might have a clue to follow.

What is the name of the painter of the painting - the one who married the baron's widow? This is a very interesting story/problem!

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#18

Oh, I just found something else on that site I sent you the link for:

1886-1887: manages the circulation of Mihaly Munkacsy's Christ Before Pilot for Charles Sedelmeyer to American venues: New York, Boston, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Saint Paul, Nashville, Phildelphia, Indianapolis; tour generates $90,000 in ticket receipts Of course, that should say 'Christ Before Pilate' (a 'pilot' is someone who works on a ship or airplane!)

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#19

You know what, OCZM, looking at this: mihalymunkacsy.org/Christ-before-Pilate-1881-large.html and looking at the picture you originally posted, I think it's fairly obvious that the picture you posted is a copy by a much inferior artist. It really does look like the kind of 'simplified copy' of some great work that you find all the time in illustrated Bibles and so on. There is dramatically less detail, and if you compare the link you sent to the other works of Munkascy, you can see that the style is entirely different and greatly inferior to Munkascy's style: mihalymunkacsy.org/

I was surprised when I looked at Munkascy's works online, because it turns out that I have a small copy of 'The Yawning Apprentice' hanging in my bedroom! I bought it at a museum on a trip to Budapest some years ago (I live in Poland - it's not a far trip). I hadn't known the painter's name or even the English title of the painting before.

But look, I've found on the Munkascy site that the three religious paintings were in Hungary for awhile and then in Canada. They are not lost:

Munkácsy went on in this direction and painted genre pictures like Making Lint (1871) and Woman Gathering Brushwood (1873). At the end of the 1870s he also worked in Barbizon, together with his friend, the Hungarian landscapist László Paal, and painted fresh, richly coloured landscapes. In 1878 he painted a historical genre picture, The Blind Milton Dictating Paradise Lost to his Daughters, which marked a new milestone in his oeuvre. This scene is set in the past and in a richly furnished room. The picture was bought (and successfully sold) by Austrian-born art dealer Charles Sedelmeyer, who offered Munkácsy a ten-year contract. This deal made Munkácsy a wealthy man and a really established member of the Paris art world. Sedelmeyer wanted him to paint large-scale pictures which could be exhibited on their own. They decided that a subject taken from the Bible would be most suitable. In 1882 Munkácsy painted Christ before Pilate which was followed by Golgotha in 1884. The trilogy was completed by Ecce Homo in 1896. These huge paintings were taken on a tour and exhibited in many European cities and also in the US. All three were bought by American millionaire John Wanamaker who exhibited them in his department store in Philadelphia every Easter. (Today all three can be seen in Debrecen, Hungary.)

The Wikipedia source on Munkascy says this:

The trilogy comprises Ecce Homo! painted in 1896 (oil on canvas, 403 x 650 cm, Déri Museum, Debrecen), Golgotha painted in 1884 (oil on canvas, 460 x 712 cm, Déri Museum, Debrecen -loan until 2002) and Christ before Pilate finished in 1881 (oil on canvas, 417 x 636 cm, Art Gallery of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada).

When I clicked on the painting of Christ Before Pilate to see a larger view, it has this note:

Mihály Munkácsy - Christ in front of Pilate, 1881. Oil on canvas, 417 × 636 cm. Déri Museum, Debrecen (loan till 2007, now in Canada). That explains why in one place it says the painting was in Hungary, and in another it says the painting is in Canada: the Canadian gallery loaned it to the Deri Museum until 2007.

I found the Canadian gallery's website and wrote to inquire if they are in posession of the original of Muckacsy's 'Christ Before Pilate.'

I'll let you know what they say, if they write back.

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#20

[quote="darksympho, post:13, topic:200167"]
Hello, I am hoping someone can help me. I have found a small image from a painting but would like to know what the complete painting looks like, is titled and who painted it. Can anyone help? Thanks and let me know. Ted

http://www.darksymphonies.com/image.jpg

[/quote]

Hmm it looks like a work of Italian Mannerism to me; possibly either Pontormo or Correggio...I'll try and track it down!

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