Request for radical sanation denied


#1

Hello.
My request for a radical sanation was denied by my Bishop. My letter from my priest said, and I quote: "Both the Bishop and Monsignor [Martin, from the diocesan Tribunal] agree that a Radical Sanation does not apply in your case."
My annulment from my second marriage was recently approved. Two years ago, I laid out the details of my previous/current marriage situation to my parish priest, and he recommended a radical sanation - but said I should file for annulment from my second husband and come see him when it was finalized. Well, he was transferred before I received my annulment.
My current husband is Mormon. We were married by the President of his church, in a civil ceremony. My husband has no wish to convert.
I have a son who is 11, and who has been baptized in two churches - Catholic and Mormon. The annulment has taken so long, my son is more interested in and is pursuing the Mormon faith.
Can anyone tell me the most likely reason they would deny a radical sanation? Was there some canonical law I missed in my internet research, or is it really Tribunal/Bishopric preference? I guess I would feel slightly better if it was denied due to the number of times I was married, my age (no future children), the grounds my annulment was granted under, yadda yadda. The Bishop gave no reason. My heart needs one.
Thanks for your time.


#2

The only reason I can guess (and my knowledge on this is very limited) is that the bishop is concerned about you and your husband being able to satisfy the canonical requirements for a valid Catholic marriage (i.e., your openness to life, your attitude towards the permanence of the marriage bond, etc.) Here's an article that discusses radical sanation a bit more.

Again, I'm quite out of my league on this question, but I still figured I'd offer my :twocents:


#3

[quote="m1dsummoner, post:1, topic:294146"]
Hello.
My request for a radical sanation was denied by my Bishop. My letter from my priest said, and I quote: "Both the Bishop and Monsignor [Martin, from the diocesan Tribunal] agree that a Radical Sanation does not apply in your case."
My annulment from my second marriage was recently approved. Two years ago, I laid out the details of my previous/current marriage situation to my parish priest, and he recommended a radical sanation - but said I should file for annulment from my second husband and come see him when it was finalized. Well, he was transferred before I received my annulment.
My current husband is Mormon. We were married by the President of his church, in a civil ceremony. My husband has no wish to convert.
I have a son who is 11, and who has been baptized in two churches - Catholic and Mormon. The annulment has taken so long, my son is more interested in and is pursuing the Mormon faith.
Can anyone tell me the most likely reason they would deny a radical sanation? Was there some canonical law I missed in my internet research, or is it really Tribunal/Bishopric preference? I guess I would feel slightly better if it was denied due to the number of times I was married, my age (no future children), the grounds my annulment was granted under, yadda yadda. The Bishop gave no reason. My heart needs one.
Thanks for your time.

[/quote]

A radical sanation is usually granted to impart the Sacramental character to a marriage that was invalid due to lack of form. Yours is not a lack of form case. If your husband is a Morman, he is not validly Baptized. A mixed marriage cannot be Sacramental unless both parties are baptized Christians. Marriage for a Catholic to a non-baptized person is not allowed without dispensation. It would be very hard to get a dispensation for a marriage to a non-baptized person without that person's participation in the request. One of the requirements for this dispensation is that the Bishop, with the pastor as the contact person, must be convinced that the non-Christian party will not interfere with the Catholic's practice of her faith or be a danger to your faith.


#4

Look up the St Joeph’s Foundation in CA. They may be able to explain it better, and possibly even help you, depending on the situation.


#5

[quote="Corki, post:3, topic:294146"]
A radical sanation is usually granted to impart the Sacramental character to a marriage that was invalid due to lack of form. Yours is not a lack of form case. If your husband is a Morman, he is not validly Baptized. A mixed marriage cannot be Sacramental unless both parties are baptized Christians. Marriage for a Catholic to a non-baptized person is not allowed without dispensation. It would be very hard to get a dispensation for a marriage to a non-baptized person without that person's participation in the request. One of the requirements for this dispensation is that the Bishop, with the pastor as the contact person, must be convinced that the non-Christian party will not interfere with the Catholic's practice of her faith or be a danger to your faith.

[/quote]

I agree with this. My guess would be that they do not believe that children resulting from this marriage would be raised Catholic (esp. where your child has already had a Mormon baptism on top of the Catholic one).

I don't know for sure whether the Church would consider your husband validly baptized. My mom belonged to the Congregational Church at the time of her baptism, but that was considered valid. She then did RCIA and did not have to be re-baptized.


#6

[quote="WingsOfEagles, post:5, topic:294146"]

I don't know for sure whether the Church would consider your husband validly baptized. My mom belonged to the Congregational Church at the time of her baptism, but that was considered valid. She then did RCIA and did not have to be re-baptized.

[/quote]

The Church considers most non-Catholic baptisms as valid. The defining characteristics are that the Baptism be trinitarian (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and use water. The Morman practice does not include a trinitarian Baptism so it's not considered a valid Baptism by the Catholic Church. Some Mormans were not brought up in that faith and were actually baptized in another Christian tradition first. So it's complicated. Congregationalists have valid Baptisms.


#7

St. Francis, do you have a link for that Foundation in CA? I’m in Michigan, would they be able to advise anything?

My husband is open and willing for me to attend Mass, he encourages it. I encourage him in his faith - he has a few callings (positions) in the hierarchy of his branch (church). We have attended each other’s church numerous times as a family.
We agreed not to attempt to convert one another when we got married (although both of us would be delighted if the other would).
I feel rather odd trying to force my 11 year old son to start attending Mass on a regular basis and go to cathecism. I was hoping they would let him be, I had read that lately they were not pushing that clause.
Thanks for all of your input. I appreciate it, really I do.


#8

I missed the part about the 11 year old. He was baptized Catholic and, at that time, you and his godparents promised to bring him up in the Catholic faith. Now he is 11 years old, past the age of discretion, and committing a sin every Sunday (with your cooperation)when he doesn’t fulfill his Sunday obligation. Yeah, that might have been an issue for the Bishop. Sorry, it’s a hard situation you are in.

Your best course of action (in my opinon) is to meet with your pastor, come up with a plan to fulfill your obligation to your son as a first priority and then reassess a request to the marriage tribunal. At this point in time, you have no spiritual obligations to your husband since you didn’t marry in the Church but you DO have a serious obligation to your son since you brought him to the Church for Baptism. It’s not that both issues cannot be addressed but it’s a matter of priorities.


#9

My prayers for your family and for you.
Loving God please give all the graces and means necessary for their healthy spiritual life in Your love and truth.


#10

[quote="Trishie, post:9, topic:294146"]
My prayers for your family and for you.
Loving God please give all the graces and means necessary for their healthy spiritual life in Your love and truth.

[/quote]

I join Trishie in these thoughts and prayer... :sad_yes:

:gopray2:


#11

In addition to the valid concerns that others have brought up, I would suggest that it is not proper for you to be visiting your husband’s ecclesial community on a regular basis. Participating in non-Christian worship services may be acceptable under certain special circumstances, such as a wedding of a family member or a funeral, but your attendance there on a regular Sunday gives the impression of acceptance and perhaps indifference to the Catholic faith. You and your son both need to spend every Sunday concentrating on your own faith at a Catholic parish.


#12

Can’t guarantee that these are the same folks, I thought they were in CA but these are in TX, but I can’t find one in CA so maybe I got confused. I know someone who contacted them many years ago, so it’s been a while…

Link.

I hope that they can help you. It’s hard when you don’t know what the reason is!


#13

[quote="Elizium23, post:11, topic:294146"]
In addition to the valid concerns that others have brought up, I would suggest that it is not proper for you to be visiting your husband's ecclesial community on a regular basis. Participating in non-Christian worship services may be acceptable under certain special circumstances, such as a wedding of a family member or a funeral, but your attendance there on a regular Sunday gives the impression of acceptance and perhaps indifference to the Catholic faith. You and your son both need to spend every Sunday concentrating on your own faith at a Catholic parish.

[/quote]

I would especially stay away from LDS Sacrament Meetings on Sundays, especially keep your son away from that place. He's getting to the age of when they receive the "Aaronic Priesthood." There is no doubt in my mind that your son would be interested in joining the LDS faith. From an emotional feel-good perspective, Mormons are at the top, and will suck you in with their kindness and warmheartedness, but that's one of the ways they get their converts. They make you feel good. Hopefully you aren't participating in their "sacrament" (the bread and water they consume) each Sunday that is passed around.

[quote="m1dsummoner, post:1, topic:294146"]

I have a son who is 11, and who has been baptized in two churches - Catholic and Mormon.

[/quote]

Your son is past the age of reason, further, he would have been "baptized" as a Mormon when he was at the age of reason. Given your neglect to properly raise him in the Catholic faith, I would doubt his culpability in making a formal act of apostasy, but this is serious. You promised to raise your son in the Catholic faith, and failed to do so. I don't place the blame entirely on you, but on the priest who determined that it was safe for your son to be baptized into the Catholic Church and that there was "reasonable hope" that he would be raised as such. I have faith that people will be held accountable for these imprudent decisions.


#14

This is why disparity of cult in matrimony ought to be discouraged.


#15

I can respect that you and your husband are trying to attend each other’s churches. However, it is your Catholic duty attend Mass and bring your 11 yo son (you can and should force him at this age-he’s still quite young to make these decisions on his own). I personally would avoid attending regular services with your husband. Perhaps, if his church has a family BBQ or something, that would be okay.


#16

[quote="m1dsummoner, post:1, topic:294146"]
... My request for a radical sanation was denied by my Bishop. My letter from my priest said, and I quote: "Both the Bishop and Monsignor [Martin, from the diocesan Tribunal] agree that a Radical Sanation does not apply in your case."
...
Can anyone tell me the most likely reason they would deny a radical sanation? Was there some canonical law I missed in my internet research, or is it really Tribunal/Bishopric preference? ...

[/quote]

Hello,

You'd need to ask the Bishop/Monsignor. Saying that it "does not apply" is an interesting way to put it and is not the same as "cannot be granted."

Again, they are the ones who know. They should also tell you what to do so that you can be in a valid marriage. If they think this relationship is a danger to your salvation, they should have told you that already, too.

If you have difficulty contacting them, have your pastor do it.

Dan


#17

[quote="m1dsummoner, post:1, topic:294146"]
Hello.
My request for a radical sanation was denied by my Bishop. My letter from my priest said, and I quote: "Both the Bishop and Monsignor [Martin, from the diocesan Tribunal] agree that a Radical Sanation does not apply in your case."
My annulment from my second marriage was recently approved. Two years ago, I laid out the details of my previous/current marriage situation to my parish priest, and he recommended a radical sanation - but said I should file for annulment from my second husband and come see him when it was finalized. Well, he was transferred before I received my annulment.
My current husband is Mormon. We were married by the President of his church, in a civil ceremony. My husband has no wish to convert.
I have a son who is 11, and who has been baptized in two churches - Catholic and Mormon. The annulment has taken so long, my son is more interested in and is pursuing the Mormon faith.
Can anyone tell me the most likely reason they would deny a radical sanation? Was there some canonical law I missed in my internet research, or is it really Tribunal/Bishopric preference? I guess I would feel slightly better if it was denied due to the number of times I was married, my age (no future children), the grounds my annulment was granted under, yadda yadda. The Bishop gave no reason. My heart needs one.
Thanks for your time.

[/quote]

You say your 'second' marriage was declared invalid, but what's the situation with your first marriage? Have you always been Catholic?


#18

As an ex-Mormon Catholic, I cannot warn enough the danger that your son’s soul is in. I strongly encourage you to get yourself and your child heavily involved in parish activities, especially anything that revolves around social activities and catechism.

At a child’s Freshman year in high school, they will have all these options/obligations at an LDS ward:
[LIST]
*]Two hours of Sunday School and Young Men’s/Young Women’s on Sundays
*]Seminary for 1 hour every morning Mon-Fri (or as an elective during school in Utah)
*]Boy Scouts/Young Women’s Camp
*]Dances every Friday night
*]Home Teaching responsibilities with Father and priesthood responsibilities (as a young man)
[/LIST]

And this is just the baseline - there are much more social aspects involved in being a Mormon youth than just the scheduled activities. There has to be more for a child at the Catholic church than simple Sunday Mass, or he will be lost to the Mormons.

There is no such thing as “ecumenism” in Mormonism. If you are not Mormon, you are not going to go on a mission, you are not going to get married in the temple, you are not going to get the blessings of the endowments in the temple, and you are not going to be able to live eternally with your family. The culture of Mormonism says to go on a mission, marry young, and have lots of children. This puts a very unique pressure on young men and women. While they will have the benefit of having peer pressure to be “in the world, not of the world” in regards to the usual teenage temptations, there will also be tremendous pressure to basically choose. And the Mormons will make it very clear that the Catholic church is not an option.

I will keep your son and your husband in my prayers. I know the forces your son will be facing, and I wore the blinders worn by your husband for much of my life. I pray you will bring the Catholic church and culture into your home, and will teach your child habits like saying a daily Rosary, going to Daily Mass, and devotion to Mary through wearing the Brown Scapular and the Miraculous Medal. Mary will protect your son if you beg for her intercession, and she can even soften the heart of your husband to conversion if you simply ask. It may take a while, but the main rule of prayer is perseverance, and I have confidence in Mary to save souls for her beloved Son if only she is asked.


#19

[quote="m1dsummoner, post:1, topic:294146"]
Hello.
My request for a radical sanation was denied by my Bishop. My letter from my priest said, and I quote: "Both the Bishop and Monsignor [Martin, from the diocesan Tribunal] agree that a Radical Sanation does not apply in your case."
My annulment from my second marriage was recently approved. Two years ago, I laid out the details of my previous/current marriage situation to my parish priest, and he recommended a radical sanation - but said I should file for annulment from my second husband and come see him when it was finalized. Well, he was transferred before I received my annulment.
My current husband is Mormon. We were married by the President of his church, in a civil ceremony. My husband has no wish to convert.
I have a son who is 11, and who has been baptized in two churches - Catholic and Mormon. The annulment has taken so long, my son is more interested in and is pursuing the Mormon faith.
Can anyone tell me the most likely reason they would deny a radical sanation? Was there some canonical law I missed in my internet research, or is it really Tribunal/Bishopric preference? I guess I would feel slightly better if it was denied due to the number of times I was married, my age (no future children), the grounds my annulment was granted under, yadda yadda. The Bishop gave no reason. My heart needs one.
Thanks for your time.

[/quote]

You are getting lots of good responses but your best route to an answer is to speak to your priest. He can contact the tribunal on your behalf for more information. He can then help you with whatever the tribunal saw that needs to be corrected. Likely the issues you mention about not attending Mass regularly and allowing your son to be baptised as a Mormon as well.


#20

Here is a big one. Radical Sanitation validates your marriage back to the date of your legal marriage. At the date of your legal marriage you were not free to marry because as you have already stated you needed an decree of nullity. You were still married in the eyes of the Church. What you need to do is to have your marriage convalidated. Your husband does not need to convert to Catholicism to do this - he only needs to make the same promises he already has made.


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