Responding to a Mormon

Hello, I am researching Mormonism and their beliefs about God and I found a Mormon response regard Isaiah 43, 44, and 45. Here is his response: “Some Christians claim that the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and belief in theosis are not compatible with multiple statements in Isaiah that “beside [the Lord] there is no God.” These passages include Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:6,8; Isaiah 45:5-6; Isaiah 45:21-22; and Isaiah 46:9-10. These scriptures in Isaiah clearly are meant to assert the supremacy, authority, and superiority of Yahweh over not only over false idols but over all else, including real gods.
The passages in Isaiah cannot be called upon to disprove LDS beliefs in separate divine beings in the Godhead or theosis. Their main point is to encourage Israel to stop worshiping other divine beings or idols but to worship Yahweh alone (see Isaiah 41:29, Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 43:10,12,24, Isaiah 44:8,9,10,17,19, Isaiah 45:9,12,16,20,22.
Any other use of these passages distorts Isaiah’s meaning and intent.” The details are found on this page: en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/%22No_God_beside_me%22
How do I respond to this?

It is difficult to argue the Bible with a Mormon because Joseph Smith taught that the Bible was corrupted by inaccurate translations, bad copies, etc… Mormonism is polytheistic and that places it very much at odds with Judeo-Christian scripture.

I think what is also very hard is that young people today who are Mormon are shielded from many of its past teachings, so they become incredulous when past beliefs are presented to them.

Mormonism is totally revamping itself, standardizing itself to conform more to Christianity, although there are many of them, particularly of the menfolk who hold on to eternal progression, trying to be perfect the best they can in this life so that they can continue on and grow in deification in the next.

Other verses that could be used [credit to TexanKnight]…

“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

However, the same argument that the LDS use to explain those verses in Isaiah could be used for these verses as well. It’s simply taking verses out of context, twisting the interpretation to fit their story, and talking out of both sides of their mouth.

FairLDS is one of the worst at doing this. Click on the link for ‘theosis’ and you’ll see that most of the page is filled with quotes from early church fathers supposedly supporting their argument as ancient, Biblical, and true. Problem is, the LDS church claims that the apostasy occurred around the end of the 1st century, which predates most early church fathers and would mean that their teachings are not biblical and true. Mormons love to mine individual verses and quotes to support their doctrine…it’s the secret sauce that protects the jello from being nailed to the wall. :wink:

I don’t have the intense study abilities to handle
all of what you have there, but I’ll do my best.

Tip One: Whatever you do, do not click on biblical links on Mormon sites that lead to
either the JST version (which is Smith’s rewriting of the Bible) or the KJV (It’s just not
good at all).

[LIST=1]
*]Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:6,8; Isaiah 45:5-6; Isaiah 45:21-22; and Isaiah 46:9-10 clarify that there is no god besides YHWH.
*]Isaiah 41:29, Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 43:10,12,24, Isaiah 44:8,9,10,17,19, and Isaiah 45:9,12,16,20,22. most certainly are targeting against idolatry.
[/LIST]
Mormonfair is clearly using a red-herring, don’t buy into it. When YHWH says that
he is the only god, He means it. When YHWH prohibits and condemns the worship
of idols, He means it. What Mormonfair is doing is trying to say that the second set
of verses above are intended to address the meaning of the first set of verses above.

It is a terrible use of Scripture, *naturally *on the Mormon’s part. YHWH says that HE
is the only god around, no other before, now, or after. Oh wait, you want to show me
your gods? Let’s see . . . oh, you mean idols, lifeless constructions of man, don’t do
that either. Worship only YHWH, as he is the only God, no other god than that One
God, who is YHWH, no other gods, not even these worthless idols.

Also, when you see something like “traditionally interpreted by mainstream
anti-Mormons,” it must be assumed that there is already a Mormon bias.

In passages like in Psalms 86, identifying God as greater than all other gods, well
that is actually contradictory in Mormon theology, as there are many gods, God is
not the greatest but rather they are all essentially the same. Is God of this world
truly greater than even his father god, and his father god’s father god, etc? Using
such passages will simply defeat Mormons.

One more then I think I’m dry…

I have checked out fairmormon’s use of Psalms 82:1,
and should inform you on what they either don’t know
or don’t want you to know:A psalm for Asaph.
God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods.
How long will you judge unjustly: and accept the persons of the wicked?
Judge for the needy and fatherless: do justice to the humble and the poor.
Rescue the poor; and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner.
They have not known nor understood: they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be moved.
I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High.
But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes.

Arise, O God, judge thou the earth: for thou shalt inherit among all the nations.

  • (Psalm 82)
    The gods being spoken of there are not divine beings but are Judges,
    unrighteous judges at that, and they bear the title gods because they
    are God’s representatives on the Earth who are assigned to work ac–
    cording to God’s will. Of course, these judges are being rather wicked,
    abusing the religious authorities given to them by God, and they WILL
    pay for their actions. It is very typical of Mormons to take things out of
    context. I find it hard to believe that this is by accident.

Before the Babylonian exile, the Hebrews struggled with idolatry. There is a sense in scripture from this time that some of the Israelites believed the pagan gods were real, but inferior to the God of Israel. Always, the prophets are calling Israel to repentance, to forsake their idolatry. Of course, no one worships a god they don’t believe in. Those who fell into idolatry believed the pagan gods were real.

God brought Israel to the understanding that there is one God, and post exilic there is a firm belief in One God, and a rejection of other so-called gods as real.

Mormonism seeks to paganism Christianity, to return to the pagan ideas of Israel. You have to ignore the constant call of the prophets to leave idolatry, the worship of other so-called gods, in order to be on board with the assumptions of so-called Mormon apologetics.

There is One God, that is the consent call of scripture through the ages. Pagan gods do not exist.

I say just quote them the actual text of Isaiah 43:10 itself. It may be possible to interpret some of the other passages they mentioned in the way they described, but not this one, which says:

“Before me, NO GOD WAS FORMED, nor shall there be any after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)

Does it get any plainer than that? This isn’t talking merely about our God’s supremacy over other gods, or that we only should worship Yahweh even though there are other real gods that exist out there. :nope: Rather, it’s talking about the very existence - or rather, non-existence - of other gods themselves, not just their worship. They don’t exist, and that’s why it’s foolish to worship them.

God plainly says here that no god existed before Him, and none will exist after Him. End of story. How someone can read this and still say, “well there are other gods that existed before our God, and we will become gods after him” is just baffling. I don’t see what more He could have said to get the point across.

Hi Romans1,

In addition to what other posters have said let me add some arguments.

If I’m not wrong, mormons identify Elohim and YHWH as diferent beings. They identify Elohim as the Father and YHWH as the Son. I also think they worship the Father/Elohim, but not the Son/YHWH (see forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=11458724&postcount=151).

Under a catholic understanding Elohim and YHWH are names for the same God, the true and one God. In fact YHWH is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

1.- YHWH is the Father: Consider for example Psalm 110:1: The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” (LORD here, in capital letters, is a respectful render for the name YHWH. Some bibles render YHWH instead).

2.- YHWH is the Son: See for example John 8:58: Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” (I AM = YHWH)

3.- YHWH is the Holy Spirit. See 2 Corintias 3:7: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (It’s clear there is only one Lord).

For more information, these pages are great:
socrates58.blogspot.com.es/2005/09/holy-trinity-biblical-proofs.html
catholicdefense.blogspot.com.es/2010/09/is-mormon-godhead-biblical.html
catholicdefense.blogspot.com.es/2010/09/where-in-bible-is-trinity.html

Taking this into account you can deduce all the problems that the Mormon understanding of God, Godhead and gods have with the Holy Scripture.

There is also speculation by some Mormons that Ashera personifies an ancient belief of a Heavenly Mother.

Supposed you do show that verse to an unsuspecting Mormon, won’t you be contradicting the Catholic belief that God created time, since the verse refers to a time before God?

Would you agree that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are infinite, eternal, and One? John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” RSV-CE.

I believe they are infinite and eternal. I believe they are one in purpose, but not one in substance.

Suppose you do show Isaiah 43:10 to an unsuspecting Mormon, won’t you be contradicting the Catholic belief that God created time, since the verse refers to a time before God?

The short answer is “no”, because the doesn’t say what you think it does. It expresses the unique position of God as being the Only God, and it is consistent with a belief in time being created. Think about it from the Catholuc side for one sec, how do you answer the question before time was created, what time was it?

If Jesus is not one with the Father in substance, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy?
No, God is the Creator of time. If God was created, then how can He be the First Cause and the Prime Mover? Can Mormonism account for God being the First Cause?

No, not quite. Saying there was no god before Him does not mean therefore that there must have been a time when God didn’t exist. But simply that…there was no other god before Him. And that’s because He has always existed, so nothing could exist before Him.

Actually, I argue that this passage is in fact emphasizing the fact that God has always existed. The Jewish people didn’t believe in an eternal universe, they believed in the beginning God created the heavens and earth. If no god existed before Yahweh did, then He couldn’t have been created by any god and therefore must by necessity be uncreated, which is precisely why no god could exist before Him, because He has always existed.

To be Mormon, one must believe God and Jesus are liars.

For God- The mormons believe God had a Father who was HIS God…yet, in the Bible, God says He knows OF NO OTHER GODS. How can that be true if his own God is His father?

For Jesus- He said Hell would NEVER prevail…yet, for the lds church to be true, hell prevailed for 1800 years.

I could never belong to a church that can only exist if God and Jesus are liars.

uh, no. God created time, there was no before, therefore no god was formed before God,
but Mormon’s beg to differ, since all things are eternal and there is no end to the number
of gods there are.

That’s not what the Bible says, but what do Mormons care: And returning to the man of God (Elisha) with all his (Naaman) train, be
came, and stood before him, and said: In truth, I know there is no other
God in all the earth, but only in Israel: I beseech thee therefore take a
blessing of thy servant.

  • (2 Kings 5:15)
    (By the way, that was from a 1899 bible, so in case you misuse that verse,
    it’s saying that there is no God in existence except the one known in Israel).

I think you just said that.

uh, no. God created time, there was no before, therefore no god was formed before God,
but Mormon’s beg to differ, since all things are eternal and there is no end to the number
of gods there are.

They are infinite and eternal and of the same substance or not. They cannot all be infinite and eternal and yet differ in substance. God is not a lot of “this” and yet a “little” of that. This type of theology is seriously re-defining God. Mormonism borders Arianism.

How can time have existed before God? Then that does not make Him Omnipotent.

No offense, but Mormon theology is a way off the target.

:clapping:

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