Revelation: infallible vs fallible


#1

Can a reality that’s pure be expressed impurely?

Would a reality that’s pure have expression if the quality of pureness isn’t able to be expressed?

Can Truth or Christ claim to be with us if they lack a pure expression on earth?


#2

I know that if you have faith in God and ask Him to show you the truth in His Word He will reveal it to you. As for revelation there is no “new” ones as all revelation is already revealed in Scripture for those who truly want to know Him and what He has planned.

It is just amazing what has already been fulfilled and the news everyday just brings His second coming closer.

For those who actually believe the Bible can see there is so much happening now and it is going faster and faster. Right now the thing to watch is the EU and the seven year plan that is in the works starting January 1, 2007. It is a seven year plan devised by Javier Solana to bring unity to the EU, Israel and a few others. The one to watch is the EU and Isreal deal because that is what God says is the part and parcel of the “great tribulation”.

According to The Revelation of Jesus Christ, chapter 17, this has to do with the romish church as the false prophet and will culminate in the distruction of her and all who are in bed with her.


#3

[quote=Benadam]Can a reality that’s pure be expressed impurely?

Would a reality that’s pure have expression if the quality of pureness isn’t able to be expressed?

Can Truth or Christ claim to be with us if they lack a pure expression on earth?
[/quote]

Benadam,

This question is not very clear. You might want to rephrase it. I don’t think people are understanding what you are saying. I think I do, but others won’t.

Michael


#4

[quote=michaelp]Benadam,

This question is not very clear. You might want to rephrase it. I don’t think people are understanding what you are saying. I think I do, but others won’t.

Michael
[/quote]

Believe it ot not, michael, there are others in this forum (even Catholics!) that can figure it out as well! :rolleyes:


#5

[quote=redeemed1]According to The Revelation of Jesus Christ, chapter 17, this has to do with the romish church as the false prophet and will culminate in the distruction of her and all who are in bed with her.
[/quote]

Your anti-Catholic prejudice is showing…and blinding you to a true interpretion of Sacred Scripture.

St. John himself explains the symbolism of the woman of Revelation 17-19 and it’s not a church. It’s a “great city” (Rev 17:18; 18:10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21.), probably apostate Jerusalem, “where their Lord was crucified” (Rev 11:8).

St. Paul speaks highly of the Church of Rome, “… your faith is proclaimed in all the world” (Rom 1:8) and " … [size=2]your obedience is known to all …" (Rom 16:19).
[/size]


#6

[quote=Benadam]Can a reality that’s pure be expressed impurely?

Would a reality that’s pure have expression if the quality of pureness isn’t able to be expressed?

Can Truth or Christ claim to be with us if they lack a pure expression on earth?
[/quote]

St. Paul says:
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. (1 Cor 13:12)


#7

Perhaps the truest principle in philosophy IMO is the principle articulated by Thomas Aquinas as “whatever is received is received according to the mode (or condition) of the receiver.” The principle has wide application (as all first principles do), but in this context, it says that what determines how a message is received is the condition of the recipient, not the strength, wisdom, purity of the sender. The sender, as sender, is responsible for the content of the message, but the condition of the recipient determines to a large extent the amount of correspondence between message sent and message received.

In the present context of revelation, any revelation of and by God, as it is received, will be limited to some extent. No creature is able to know God as completely he knows himself, simply because every creature is limited, even though God is infinite. His revelation has to be limited by the condition of the creatures he reveals himself to. A quasi-exception: Jesus is the full and complete revelation precisely because he is God. But even if there is limitation in the reception, that does not mean distortion, though the limitation of recipients certainly allows room for distortion despite the limitlessness of the sender (God).

This has the very practical effect that we need God’s help to receive his revelation as well as possible. This, I think, is recognized by all Christians: for Catholics, this help (as Jesus abiding with his Church and having the Holy Spirit to lead it to all truth) is present in the Magisterium providing the authoritative interpretation to the single Deposit of Faith (Scripture and Tradition, together); for (most) Protestants, it is a personal guidance by the Holy Spirit. The first kind of help (in the Magisterium) makes more sense to me, so I am Catholic. If the second kind of help were what Jesus intended, there should not arise more than one understanding (reception) of revelation; but there is more than one; therefore, . . .


#8

[quote=michaelp]Benadam,

This question is not very clear. You might want to rephrase it. I don’t think people are understanding what you are saying. I think I do, but others won’t.

Michael
[/quote]

Michael, thanks for asking:-) You’re right , and I’m still grappling with the best way to word it. Maybe discussion within the thread will help with that.

Marv


#9

[quote=Todd Easton]St. Paul says:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. (1 Cor 13:12)

[/quote]

Todd,

thanks for that comment I think it helps define my question. We see in part in regards of God’s revelation of Himself. But if that part is also seen with elements that are not God would we be able to say that we have seen God, or to put it in the terms closer to home can we say that we possess Truth or Christ? Wouldn’t we have to say we’ve seen something that is similar to what God looks like. But then we run into the dillema of How do we know unless it be purely expressed?


#10

[quote=aridite]Perhaps the truest principle in philosophy IMO is the principle articulated by Thomas Aquinas as “whatever is received is received according to the mode (or condition) of the receiver.” The principle has wide application (as all first principles do), but in this context, it says that what determines how a message is received is the condition of the recipient, not the strength, wisdom, purity of the sender. The sender, as sender, is responsible for the content of the message, but the condition of the recipient determines to a large extent the amount of correspondence between message sent and message received.

In the present context of revelation, any revelation of and by God, as it is received, will be limited to some extent. No creature is able to know God as completely he knows himself, simply because every creature is limited, even though God is infinite. His revelation has to be limited by the condition of the creatures he reveals himself to. A quasi-exception: Jesus is the full and complete revelation precisely because he is God. But even if there is limitation in the reception, that does not mean distortion, though the limitation of recipients certainly allows room for distortion despite the limitlessness of the sender (God).

This has the very practical effect that we need God’s help to receive his revelation as well as possible. This, I think, is recognized by all Christians: for Catholics, this help (as Jesus abiding with his Church and having the Holy Spirit to lead it to all truth) is present in the Magisterium providing the authoritative interpretation to the single Deposit of Faith (Scripture and Tradition, together); for (most) Protestants, it is a personal guidance by the Holy Spirit. The first kind of help (in the Magisterium) makes more sense to me, so I am Catholic. If the second kind of help were what Jesus intended, there should not arise more than one understanding (reception) of revelation; but there is more than one; therefore, . . .
[/quote]

I agree with all of what you wrote. When you use the word distortion that is what I meant by using the word pure. Can God be expressed with distortion and that expression still claim to express God?


#11

[quote=Benadam]I agree with all of what you wrote. When you use the word distortion that is what I meant by using the word pure. Can God be expressed with distortion and that expression still claim to express God?
[/quote]

Short answer: Yes. But you should be a little careful in what you call impure. Scripture is God’s revelation in human words. But the document “Verbum Dei” from Vat II says that even the human elements were chosen by God to communicate what God intended. So what falls short of full divine purity can and does (though never perfectly) communicates God’s intentions. The failing isn’t with God’s power or the purity of his message, but with the imperfection of the human instruments and human listeners. Hence, the need for a living, active ministry of authentic and authoritative interpretation = Magisterium.


#12

[quote=redeemed1]I know that if you have faith in God and ask Him to show you the truth in His Word He will reveal it to you. As for revelation there is no “new” ones as all revelation is already revealed in Scripture for those who truly want to know Him and what He has planned.

It is just amazing what has already been fulfilled and the news everyday just brings His second coming closer.

For those who actually believe the Bible can see there is so much happening now and it is going faster and faster. Right now the thing to watch is the EU and the seven year plan that is in the works starting January 1, 2007. It is a seven year plan devised by Javier Solana to bring unity to the EU, Israel and a few others. The one to watch is the EU and Isreal deal because that is what God says is the part and parcel of the “great tribulation”.

According to The Revelation of Jesus Christ, chapter 17, this has to do with the romish church as the false prophet and will culminate in the distruction of her and all who are in bed with her.
[/quote]

There are idols that the fallen powers are succesfully distracting your attention from seeing. Untill you recognize and deal with them you will never see their manifestation in the world. They have even blinded you from the fact that their religion is hidden in the shadows of the unconsciouness of men. But their work is plain to see in the world. Because you deny them they project their image onto their enemy and it becomes yours as well.


#13

[quote=aridite]Short answer: Yes. But you should be a little careful in what you call impure. Scripture is God’s revelation in human words. But the document “Verbum Dei” from Vat II says that even the human elements were chosen by God to communicate what God intended. So what falls short of full divine purity can and does (though never perfectly) communicates God’s intentions. The failing isn’t with God’s power or the purity of his message, but with the imperfection of the human instruments and human listeners. Hence, the need for a living, active ministry of authentic and authoritative interpretation = Magisterium.
[/quote]

are you saying that God can’t produce perfection from imperfection?


#14

[quote=Todd Easton]St. Paul says:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. (1 Cor 13:12)

[/quote]

my point is that the part we do see must not have error or else it isn’t a true revelation of God.


#15

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