revelations 1-20 have already occurred?


#1

is it true that in cathoocism their belief is that revelations 1-20 have already happened all within the first century. If so could someone elaborate with some detail to help me understand


#2

What the Catholic Church believes is just what the the book entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ says–that it was written at the command of Our Lord by John while he was in exile on the island of Patmos. It is addressed to 7 churches (we’d call them parishes in our day) in Asia Minor that existed at the time and which were undergoing persecution by pagan Rome. So, of course the events are meant for them in their time as well as for us in our time. Them, as real events happening at the time, and us as events yet to come as we await the return of Christ.

Here is an article on it: Apocalypse.


#3

there are many that believe similiar to that, they are called preterist. See, preteristarchive.com/

google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&client=pub-8168503353085287&cof=FORID%3A1%3BGL%3A1%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BT%3A%23000000%3BLC%3A%230000ff%3BVLC%3A%23663399%3BALC%3A%230000ff%3BGALT%3A%23008000%3BGFNT%3A%230000ff%3BGIMP%3A%230000ff%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BAH%3Acenter%3B&domains=NewAdvent.org&q=preterist+&sitesearch=


#4

[quote=myfavoritmartin]is it true that in cathoocism their belief is that revelations 1-20 have already happened all within the first century. If so could someone elaborate with some detail to help me understand
[/quote]

First, the Catholic Church does not require Catholics to believe in a given interpretation of all Bible passages. Although there are some passages, that are doctrinal in nature, which the Church does not allow for any latitude in interpretation, for much of the Bible it does allow Catholics to believe various interpretations.

That being said, I have listened the bible study of Revelation by Scott Hahn titled The End, in which he teaches that Revelation is primarily about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. It is a very in-depth study (12 audio CDS), that not only teaches Hahn’s position, but also examines other interpretations and he gives credence to many aspects of the four major types of interpretation. He accentuates that Revelation, and the Scripture passages in general, can have multiple valid interpretations, many of which are in accord with Church teaching. I will summarize for you a few of his arguments, that I can recall, regarding the interpretation that Revelation relates to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Many, if not most, bible scholars believe that Revelation was written around 96 A.D., after the destruction of Jerusalem (70 A.D.) and many other scholars say it was written before 70 A.D and that it is talking about the persecution of Christians by Nero. There are many arguments on both sides of the issue of when Revelation was written. One of Hahn’s arguments, for it being written prior to 70A.D., is that John’s being instructed to measure the temple (Rev 11:1) indicates that Jerusalem has not yet been destroyed, otherwise ther would be no temple to measure. He sites that the city is Jerusalem because it is “where their Lord was crucified.” (Rev 11:8). He also uses Old Testament passages to explain much of Revelation including to show that Jerusalem was often referred to as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt, as the city is referred to in Revelation. Hahn also shows the many parallels between Revelation and Ezekiel’s prophecies.

Hahn also cites many historical facts, taken from sources outside of Scripture, to corroborate many of his hypotheses. He establishes credible arguments supporting that the “red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads” represents Herod and that the beast “with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads” represents Nero.

Hahn’s presentation is very interesting and thought provoking and I would recommend it to anyone wanting insights into Revelation.


#5

Nero was also the 7th Emperor representing the 7 heads of the beast. His persecutions in the 60’s were far worse than those in the 90’s, further leading creedence to the earlier writing. Nero had a fondness for lighting his gardens in the evenings with Christians on crosses set on fire.

The destruction of Jerusalem certainly adds to the theory of the 60’s writing.

I think the early writing proponents feel that the destruction means both Jerusalem and the End of Times.

Notworthy


#6

I have to admit I’m not very knowledgeable about the Book of Revelation. But surely a book written by a first century Christian to other first century Christians was intended to mean something first of all to them, not to somebody 20 centuries later.


#7

[quote=myfavoritmartin]is it true that in cathoocism their belief is that revelations 1-20 have already happened all within the first century. If so could someone elaborate with some detail to help me understand
[/quote]

The Catholic Church does not micro manage Scripture in that way. There are only two things in the book of Revelation that Catholics are required to believe:

First, the thousand year reign of Christ is figurative, not literal, in it’s length. And it is not a physical, but spiritual reign on this Earth.

Second, the 144,000 in heaven, is a figurative, not a literal amount.


#8

[quote=anawim]There are only two things in the book of Revelation that Catholics are required to believe:

First, the thousand year reign of Christ is figurative, not literal, in it’s length. And it is not a physical, but spiritual reign on this Earth.

Second, the 144,000 in heaven, is a figurative, not a literal amount.
[/quote]

That seems sensible to me, but I’d be much obliged if you could point me to a source that stipulates these two things must be believed, and that the rest of Revelation is devoid of any passages that must be interpreted just so.


#9

[quote=volzcpa]First, the Catholic Church does not require Catholics to believe in a given interpretation of all Bible passages. Although there are some passages, that are doctrinal in nature, which the Church does not allow for any latitude in interpretation, for much of the Bible it does allow Catholics to believe various interpretations.

That being said, I have listened the bible study of Revelation by Scott Hahn titled The End, in which he teaches that Revelation is primarily about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. It is a very in-depth study (12 audio CDS), that not only teaches Hahn’s position, but also examines other interpretations and he gives credence to many aspects of the four major types of interpretation. He accentuates that Revelation, and the Scripture passages in general, can have multiple valid interpretations, many of which are in accord with Church teaching. I will summarize for you a few of his arguments, that I can recall, regarding the interpretation that Revelation relates to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Many, if not most, bible scholars believe that Revelation was written around 96 A.D., after the destruction of Jerusalem (70 A.D.) and many other scholars say it was written before 70 A.D and that it is talking about the persecution of Christians by Nero. There are many arguments on both sides of the issue of when Revelation was written. One of Hahn’s arguments, for it being written prior to 70A.D., is that John’s being instructed to measure the temple (Rev 11:1) indicates that Jerusalem has not yet been destroyed, otherwise ther would be no temple to measure. He sites that the city is Jerusalem because it is “where their Lord was crucified.” (Rev 11:8). He also uses Old Testament passages to explain much of Revelation including to show that Jerusalem was often referred to as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt, as the city is referred to in Revelation. Hahn also shows the many parallels between Revelation and Ezekiel’s prophecies.

Hahn also cites many historical facts, taken from sources outside of Scripture, to corroborate many of his hypotheses. He establishes credible arguments supporting that the “red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads” represents Herod and that the beast “with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads” represents Nero.

Hahn’s presentation is very interesting and thought provoking and I would recommend it to anyone wanting insights into Revelation.
[/quote]


#10

Thanks Jim this was the insight I was looking for.


#11

[quote=Digitonomy]That seems sensible to me, but I’d be much obliged if you could point me to a source that stipulates these two things must be believed, and that the rest of Revelation is devoid of any passages that must be interpreted just so.
[/quote]

As far as the 1000 year millenial reign of Christ, although I don’t know if he was the first, Pope Sylvester II condemned the literal interpretaion of this passage, and forbid any Catholic from taking it literally.

I don’t remember who or when the literal interpretaion of the 144,000 in Rev. 7 & 14 was dismissed as an un-Catholic view. If I find it, I’ll let you know.


#12

[quote=anawim]I don’t remember who or when the literal interpretaion of the 144,000 in Rev. 7 & 14 was dismissed as an un-Catholic view. If I find it, I’ll let you know.
[/quote]

The belief that Christ will literally reign upon the Earth for 1000 years is called Millenarianism. Here is what the Church has ruled on it:

**Decree of the Holy Office dated July 21, 1944: **

"In recent times on several occasions, this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world.

“The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”


#13

Thanks for those cites, anawim and Fidelis.

“The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”

Interesting choice of words. It sounds to me like it’s not necessarily false, but comes with so much false baggage that a learner is likely to be misled.


#14

[quote=Digitonomy]Thanks for those cites, anawim and Fidelis.

Interesting choice of words. It sounds to me like it’s not necessarily false, but comes with so much false baggage that a learner is likely to be misled.
[/quote]

I agree. It seems to imply that this school of thought is so outside the realm of authentic Catholic taeaching as to be irredeemable and unsalvagable.


#15

There is one other book that I had found to be helpful in my Reformed days. The book is called Days of Vengance, by David Chilton. It is not writted from a Catholic perspective, but it handles the book of Revelation well and gives a good handle on the pre 70 writing. He tends to be a little over the edge sometimes, and tends to lean toward the old Kindom Now theology.


#16

[quote=DARichards]There is one other book that I had found to be helpful in my Reformed days. The book is called Days of Vengance, by David Chilton. It is not writted from a Catholic perspective, but it handles the book of Revelation well and gives a good handle on the pre 70 writing. He tends to be a little over the edge sometimes, and tends to lean toward the old Kindom Now theology.
[/quote]

Scott Hahn recommended this book on his tape set, “The End”.


#17

Hi ,walt2000 here.

SEALS Re.6-8/3 Thunder no.1 We christions win.
TRUMPETS Re.8/4-11/19 Thunder no.2 We christions win.
WITNESSES Re.10-11/13 Thunder no.3 We christions win.
EARTH Re.12-15 Thunder no.4 We christions win.
THE WORD Re.14/6-15/5 Thunder no.5 We christions win.
THE VIALS Re.15/6-16 Thunder no.6 We christions win.
THE WHORE Re.17/20 Thunder no.7 We christions win.

SEVEN TIMES A WINNER
Seven Thunders start with a WHITE HORSE.
Seven Thunders end with a WHITE HORSE.
No.6 is the number of man.
No.7 is the number of christ.
Look in to gematria for the other numbers.

One of you guy’s rolled your eyes.
One of you guy’s called it the workings of another fruit cake.
Now tell CHRIST WHAT HE IS.He is the one that gave it to john.
Before You judge, prove this is not right.
Just a Catholic to a Catholic.it is all in order ,from White Horse to White Horse.CHRIST TO CHRIST.Said Seven times,seven diffrent ways.THE CATHOLICS WIN !!! I left the prologue and the epilogue out. Just one fruit cake to another fruit cake.

I HOPE THIS PASSES YOUR WATCHERS :gopray2:
If this doe’s not i’m just a christion.wasting his time.


#18

I don’t know a source either, but do remember from Scripture class thatthis is one of the simple numerical figures used in the Bible. 12 is a perfect number, so 12x12 is exceedingly perfect, and times 1000 is a vast, perfect number, indicating a fullness.


#19

Well glory be :thumbsup:
I found the LORD,it’s In the code

YOU CAN NOT UNDER STAND REVELATIONS UNTILL YOU UNDER STAND THE CODE. revelations is also in a code.That is unless you want to be a Baptist,and not that there is any thing against the baptists there very nice people.
1000 is a megga number and 10,000x10,000x1000’s of 1000’s is a mult. megga number.
CHRIST IS NOT JUST GOING TO JUST RULE A THOUSAND YEARS.
12. 12X12, 144,000 is a mult megga number of 12.
walt2000


#20

[quote=walt2000]Well glory be :thumbsup:
I found the LORD,it’s In the code

YOU CAN NOT UNDER STAND REVELATIONS UNTILL YOU UNDER STAND THE CODE. revelations is also in a code.That is unless you want to be a Baptist,and not that there is any thing against the baptists there very nice people.
1000 is a megga number and 10,000x10,000x1000’s of 1000’s is a mult. megga number.
CHRIST IS NOT JUST GOING TO JUST RULE A THOUSAND YEARS.
12. 12X12, 144,000 is a mult megga number of 12.
walt2000
[/quote]


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