Nor praying with your head covered.
I believe the term rite was being used in a narrower sense of the word, as in “rite of the Mass“. It is a word with multiple meanings and is perfectly correct in this usage.
“rite-a formal or ceremonial act or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use: rites of baptism; sacrificial rites”
It seems that you live in a part of the country that is populated with very difficult people. Our local FSSP Parish has several hundred families, three outstanding priests, four Masses on every Sunday and two daily Masses. While the attitude that you mention most certainly exists there, I I have never seen it from the priests and the priests work very hard to set the tone for the parish. In the 15 or so years that I have had any involvement with that Parish, I’ve see a dramatic Improvement in the overall tone of the parish, as more and more families are attracted to the Mass and the parish as a whole. Those with a severe and rigid attitude are now far outnumbered by those who are welcoming and kind.
You would be very very mistaken.
However, almost 50 years after the reprehensible actions of Lefebvre, the attitude of those who share – and reflect --his mindset hardly surprise me. Neither by what they say or how they act.
I agree with those who say that comparing today’s EF and OF is like comparing apples and oranges because most people who attend the EF make an effort to seek it out, so there aren’t very many people there who are there merely out of obligation. I’m glad it’s this way though. I wouldn’t want the EF to become the norm. The EF (at least my parish) is like a refuge from the “mainstream” church that isn’t influenced by the times, or a modernist bishop that may happen to be assigned to a diocese, or a more “progressive” pastor that may be assigned to the parish. If the EF was the norm, it would become an equivalent of the current OF, some reverent, some less so, some traditional, some more contemporary and changing with the times. Then the folks who now prefer the EF will again begin looking for a new “refuge” from the mainstream EF. Why not just leave it how it is. I just wish the EF was more available so more people could be exposed to it, and then could make a choice to attend or not.
How about after Mass? Is everyone still reverent? Is the church silent after having witnessed the sacrifice on Calvary and worshiped God with the angels and saints in heaven? Are they staying after Mass to say a few prayers of thanksgiving or a Rosary? Or is everyone up and walking about inside the church having conversations and socializing now that the Mass is over? THIS - THIS is the main difference in the level of reverence I see between the OF and the EF. OF attendees in virtually every parish in my diocese (Midwest) have a profound lack of concern for maintaining silence and respect inside of God’s house after Mass has concluded (I am not referring to the hallways or vestibule, I am talking about in the church proper). I travel about the country and I see the same thing everywhere OF is celebrated. And that is why I say the EF is more reverent. It is the interior deportment of the worshipers, which is reflected in how they behave before, during, and especially after the Mass.
I don’t think it’s the form of the Mass itself that determines how people conduct themselves. In addition to what I said above about the EF attracting more traditionally minded people to begin with, a lot of how people behave in church, as well as the level of awe and reverence they show the Eucharist, has to do with the pastor. The pastor has to lead the parish, he has to preach about these things if necessary. He has to remember that HE is in charge of the parish, not the laity. For example, our pastor has preached about the proper places and way to genuflect, even demonstrating how to genuflect properly. He has preached about keeping a meditative atmosphere in the church, about proper attire, etc. If pastors speak up about these things, people will listen. If they worry about offending people or let the laity with the largest monetary contributions run the parish (I’ve read about these cases on these very forums), no wonder there is a lack of reverence in some churches. Most likely people don’t do it to be disrespectful to the Eucharist, they just don’t know. And there is no one there to teach them.
We chat in the church after Mass and as I have mentioned, the priest is often joining in. Part of the chat is occurring because people are moving about the church lighting candles and trying to hand in the payment envelopes for same, taking their kids to pray in front of the saint statues, writing petitions in the books set aside for same, speaking to people they know who are seniors or disabled and are not in the physical shape to be walking out to the vestibule or parking lot (especially in bad weather) to greet their friends (some of these churches do not even have a vestibule or a large enough parking lot to stand in). Meanwhile the servers are usually scurrying around the altar snuffing candles and shutting off lights, the priest is often going around greeting people especially the seniors and disabled, and at Christmas there is a creche that everybody is trying to visit especially the children, other times there is a giving tree or a food drive bin placed in proximity to the sanctuary so people are congregating there making donations.
Some may see this as “distraction”, I see it as that fellowship that everyone is always saying we need more of. I’m certainly not going to make two 80-year-olds who I personally know did decades worth of volunteer work for the church and the Parish school be quiet and leave the building to ask their friends how they are doing and did so-and-so get out of the hospital, etc.
I also do not have any problem praying over any of this activity. I just spent an hour at a Mass that likely had several screaming children during it and these churches are big enough that if I really need a quiet space I can find a far corner away from where some mama is trying to help her child pray to the statue of Mary up front. Mostly I am just concerned with getting done with my prayer before they shut the lights off and lock up, because they do that pretty quick unless another Mass is starting up within the half hour.
If you want a church that’s like a library, I’d tell you to go somewhere else.
I have to disagree. When my pastor offers the OF, the people hang out and chat after Mass IN the church. When he asks them to move outside the church, they snicker. When he puts a notice in the bulletin about not socializing in church, they ignore it. When my pastor offers the EF on first Fridays, the attendees are much more reverent and SILENT before and after Mass. Yes, there is some overlap with the same people attending both forms. People often try to come up to me and talk inside the church after the OF (I ask them to talk to me outside) but not the EF.
No, what you’re saying is the sample population of EF masses today–a SMALL sample—behaves in a more reverent way than the massive numbers of people attending the OF. What you are ignoring is that your sample set of OF masses are ones that are the average Mass. There’s little evidence that besides cultural tact and decorum there was anything more reverent about EF Masses when they were the norm. We know for a fact that there was egregious behavior and abuses in the EF before the days of the OF. When you have a large number of people just punching their responsibility cards, it’s going to happen.
Again, if you want to compare apples to apples you need to find an OF Mass where people selectively attend–like a Lifeteen Mass that follows the rules–and compare it.
If parishioners are directly acting against the rules of the priest, then there are bigger issues than the type of the Mass. Lets say Father announced an EF Mass on First Friday, but then greeted the parishoners and said that he was sorry, but he wasn’t disposed to do an EF Mass (missing vestment or some other rule) and he was doing an OF. Are you telling me that those reverent, devout people would simply throw away their good behavior and act like wild sugar-crazed school children because Father changed the Mass?
No, no, they wouldn’t. People who are properly disposed for Mass will behave that way. Those who are not will behave likewise.
People who fuss about mass are unstable. The surroundings also very much affect the atmosphere of the mass as well. If you want quiet, cathedrals and big churches with plenty of families may not be places to go but perhaps smaller quiet chapels would be the ones you are looking for like the Carmalite convents or similar monasteries.
Just get some good ear plugs. Done deal.
And I say EF helps them to be more properly disposed for worship than the OF. That is my point. It’s ok if you disagree or if you say the evidence does not support what I am saying.
I am not talking about silence for my sake. I am saying silence shows respect for Christ in the tabernacle. The church is not a profane room for socializing. It is consecrated and set apart for worship.
It is not about silence for the unstable people who want quite time to pray. The point being made is that silence shows respect for Christ in the Eucharist. The church is not a social hall and virtually all parishes have a separate meeting room where people can socialize.
Obviously the church is NOT a social hall. How is this issue came about or where did anybody suggest it is?
Where I am, no it is not.
When I have visited the United States, I have offered Mass in parishes that were recently established and that used what I remember being called “multi-purpose buildings.” There was another phrase in English I do not remember.
The parishioners had a remarkable capacity to re-purpose these spaces quite quickly from church to classrooms…to a parish hall/social hall. I found it quite extraordinary what they could do with these modular components.
Yah shows how much you know.
The first 14 verses of the chapter of John were always read following the dismissal. That was one tradition that never should have been touched.
Who suggested it was?
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