Richness?

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Was this part of the bible removed at some point? That would be bad if it wasn’t. With all that gold that the Pope and the rest of the catholic leadership has, their net worth in life will probably get them to the front of the line in hell according to this direct quote from the bible.

I do not understand the need of excessive wealth. It is sick that a “holy” man lives in such luxury while people throughout the world starve in poverty.

The passage states that wealth makes entering into heaven difficult, not that possessing wealth was sinful. Those who possess wealth are more likely to put their possessions above God.

If you have some evidence that the Pope is more concerned with his wealth than the service he has dedicated his life to, than that’s an issue.

If you own the computer you’re typing on, that would suggest you are a good bit wealthier than the vast majority of the human populace. Are you damned for possessing such an object?

The Pope does not ‘own’ the Vatican, St. Peter’s, the various art treasures that are held in trust for all people, etc.

Want to have some enlightenment? Look up the will of the late Pope John Paul II who died in 2005. You’d have thought that he’d ‘will’ his gold thrones etc. to his family or even to other priests and stuff. . .but funny, he didn’t really have anything to ‘will’ because he himself didn’t own all that stuff.

So . . . 700 years ago some nice Italian nobleman decided to ask an artist to paint a beautiful picture of Christ. When it was done, it was shown in the church, and when the nobleman died, he willed it to “The Church”. . .and now, anybody who wants to can go to Rome (or heck, a lot of time exhibits get loaned to other museums in the world, like the MOMA in the U.S.) and see that picture.

It isn’t OWNED by the Pope. Even though the picture is worth lots of money (hey, some of those artists were really talented), it isn’t OWNED by the Pope, and it can’t be ‘sold’ so that he can buy, say, a Ferrari.

You know, the Pope is the head of a ‘state’ (Vatican City) and he has job responsibilities etc.

When President Obama came to the White House he got to use all the nice china and all the ‘perks’, he rides in Air Force I, etc. It’s part of his responsibility as president. . .but when he leaves office, all the stuff ‘stays there’ for the next president to use.

Same with the Pope.

None of us really own anything, it`s all on loan to us while we are here

Why doesn’t the Pope make an effort to have the items sold and the money sent to charity?

If they did sell everything in the Vatican, all the money they got probaby wouldn`t make a dent in helping all the people in need throughout the world. Keep the Vatican

I have a problem with the money sports figures are paid & other entertainers, it`s indecent

The artifacts and painting are currently on display so that they might be viewed and appreciated by all who wish.

If they were sold, that would not be the case.

Luke 18: 22-30 (NIV)

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." **
26Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
27Jesus replied,
“What is impossible with men is possible with God.” **
28Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29"I tell you the truth,” Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."

Note two things…in context

  1. Our Lord Jesus did not say that rich can’t or won’t enter the Kingdom…hard yes, but not impossible…for all “…is possible with God.”

  2. Yet, He is very direct with no caveats when…He tells Peter…that** those who give up everything for the sake of the Kingdom of God…will be blessed many times in this life and the life to come.**
    Who has given up more for the Kingdom than a Catholic priest…family, marriage, vows of obedience, chastity and even at nearly 80 yrs of age…the Pope is still hard at work…no rest or retirement…remember John Paul II…he stayed on his cross of physical pain and suffering (and even humiliation) until the end…just like his Savior! Yes, the Pope lives comfortably but not ostentatiously…no airplane or yachts…and he prays and cares for everyone in the world…especially the least among us!

  3. Also, the Vatican’s riches are in ancient art and artifacts…some spiritual (liturgical vestments and metal works) and some secular art works…buildings and paintings etc…but every year the Vatican City/Saint Peter’s barely breaks even in expense versus revenue (it is often in the “red”). Also, no other organization or nation-state gives/does as much for the poor world wide than the Roman Catholic Chruch…with all of its ministries and apostolates world wide…I mean nobody!

  4. Lastly, the “riches” we are to give up are those that attach us to sin…the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church do have “riches”…but what the Pope and the Church have are for the greater glory of God!..not themselves!

Pax Christi

:rotfl: You’re funny! Especially when you advocate bible-editing. But then again, that is part of your church’s history, isn’t it?

Read over all of the responses and really listen to what they’re saying. All of the history the Vatican holds, through architecture and artwork, are all open to be toured and viewed by all of humanity. This would NOT happen if we fed all of this beauty to some disgustingly rich CEO to hide in his penthouse or vault.

Alone, we can afford nothing. Together, we can build a cathedral that thousands of people, now and for hundreds of years, can call home.

You don’t think that even a small donation counts? That helping one child eat for a day is important? IMO helping one person does matter, it is as important as saving a million.

Honestly, I know this guy very well… this is not what is going to damn him to hell. lol.

But giving a child one meal after which they will die just as surely, only a little more slowly, isn’t saving anyone or anything.

And what would the Church do to keep feeding these people after they’ve consumed the breadstick and half an apple each that selling everything it owns would buy for every hungry person in the world? Because not a one of them wouldn’t end up in just the same predicament after being fed that one meal.

It is much more sensible, and much better as a source of continuing and predictable yearly income for continuing charity purposes, to keep the art treasures and charge tourists a fee to view them. Instead you propose to sell them off and lose them forever after as a source of the continuing income every charity requires. Something a lot of secular governments that have flogged off national resources and assets such as utility companies are finding to their great cost.

And believe me, the Church feeds far more hungry mouths a day than any other charity you’d care to name, on lower operational fees. And has been doing so for far longer. And doubtless will continue to do so after many of the others have folded. Being a 2,000-year-old organisation teaches you a little about the best way to run such things.

Um, here’s the thing. Perhaps you didn’t quite understand. . .if the Pope and the cardinals don’t own the various items, **how do you expect them to sell them???:confused:

**As a Catholic Christian I own these items just as much as the Pope does. . .in fact, you, abbynormal, own these items as much as any one person does.

Furthermore, all the people who have lived through those centuries (some of those ‘treasures’ are very ancient indeed) **owned them too.

**And all people yet to be born as long as earth endures ‘own’ these things too.

Now, would you like to explain to us:

  1. How you are going to get ‘permission’ from everybody (including the departed and the not-born) to sell those items.
  2. Just exactly how, assuming you met the conditions in #1, and were indeed able to find ‘purchasers’ for those treasures at **fair market value **(keeping in mind that many ‘treasures’ like relics would not be ‘worth anything’ to a nonCatholic. . .

just exactly **how much you think would be raised, and how you would ‘distribute it to the poor’?

**Look at Haiti, for pity’s sake. Aid is streaming in by the millions and is it going to the people who need it most? Not without a big ol’ cut to the ‘powers’ that are going to get even richer ‘skimming’.

Your idea is that we deprive humanity of treasures held in trust for them in order to supposedly ‘enrich’ the poor right now this minute January 16, 2010. . .

And then what? Maybe. . .just maybe. . .some poor man (after all is said and done) would get $5. That’s it. . .$5. Are you going to be able to stand over him and insist that he spend the $5 wisely, and not in drinking, drugs, or sex instead? And suppose he does buy enough food for the year. . .the next year, there’s a drought and he’s back to where he started. . .and worse, because there’s no ‘possibility’ of another ‘windfall’, and he (and all humanity) are deprived of that which was meant for God and his people and which is now languishing in the museums of the already obscenely wealthy (the **real wealthy who actually ‘own’ things, unlike the Pope and the Church).

**So are you ready to ‘steal’ from all humanity to supposedly, for one brief ‘moment’ in time, make a donation that isn’t yours to make because you think that right now, ‘one person’s full belly’ is worth ‘more’ than sacred art (which I repeat, is in trust for all, including you, even if you don’t think it’s worth anything except for what it can do 'for the poor).

In closing, might I recommend you prayerfully consider this Scriptural passage?

Matthew 26: 6And when Jesus was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, 7 There came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. 8 And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11 For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always. 12 For she in pouring this ointment upon my body, hath done it for my burial. 13 Amen I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which she hath done, shall be told for a memory of her. 14 Then went one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, to the chief priests, 15 And said to them: What will you give me, and I will deliver him unto you? But they appointed him thirty pieces of silver.

There is no sin in having lots of wealth. Infact the main point of that verse was to point out how such material possesions can keep one from fully honoring from God. It doesn’t take lots of money to send a person to hell. Theoretically it could be a paper clip that could send a person to hell.

Our Lord himself answered this in Matt. 26:6-10. The poor will always be with us, but the Lord is deserving of the expensive perfume in the alabaster jar. Can anyone answer what John Paul II left to family or friends? The answer … nothing.

So can I assume you will be buried naked on your own property that shall be up for sale with no casket, and not being embalmed?

Read my response again in reference to the “wealth of the Church”. It is factual to say that the Pope owns nothing nor do I feel the need to defend “wealth” in observing that fact.

What makes you think that the wider Church does not in fact make donations to help the poor? The Church is not the Pope, it is all of us.

Why don’t you google Catholic missions and you’ll find plenty of people who have given up their entire lives to the assistance of the poor. The Pope has given his entire life to the Church, forsaking family and personal wealth. The “wealth” of the Vatican belongs to all people not just the Pope.

And how would you put a price on such works of art as the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, or Michaelangelo’s Pieta? Those works are priceless. But assuming you could put a price on it: who would you sell it to? A billionaire? The State? It already belongs to a state. A museum? Then you could argue “why doesn’t the museum sell it to raise money for the poor”. Why doesn’t Queen Elizabeth sell all her wealth and give it to the poor?

You’re digging up a familiar old canard about the Church being “wealthy”. Fact is, in spite of that “wealth” which is basically priceless and cannot be sold, she has trouble paying to keep the heat on.

And as others have pointed out, even if she did sell it, poverty wouldn’t disappear because of it.

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