Rick Warren - Is this right?


#1

What do CAF members think of this?

Jesus Trusted the Bible. You Should, Too
by Rick Warren

“For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18 NIV)

You may have heard someone say, “I trust Jesus, but not the other guys who wrote the Bible.” There’s a problem with that logic.

Jesus trusted the Bible — every word of it! He taught that the Bible was a unique book, above all the others.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:18,“For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (NIV).

Jesus says the Bible will last until the end of time. It will accomplish what God wants to accomplish in this world. In John 10:35 Jesus said, “We know that Scripture is always true”(NIRV). Jesus proclaimed the truth of the Bible. And when Jesus talks about the truthfulness of the Bible, we need to listen.

When Jesus talked about the Bible with people, he would often base his argument about the truth of the Bible on a single sentence or even a single word from the Bible. He believed every single sentence, every single word of Scripture. So if I trust Jesus, why wouldn’t I trust the Bible?

When Jesus talks about the Bible, he doesn’t just talk about it as poetry and history, either. He saw the Bible as something that changes lives. In Luke 11:28 Jesus said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it”(NIV). Jesus didn’t just want us to read the Bible. That’s what you do with poetry and history. Jesus wanted us to obey the Bible. That’s what you do with anything the Creator of the universe writes.

When Jesus talked about the Bible, he talked about it as if the people and events in it were real. He talked about all the prophets being real. He talked about Daniel being real. Jesus believed in Noah and everything that happened with the flood. He believed in Adam and Eve. Jesus believed in the tragedy of Sodom and Gomorrah. He believed in Jonah and him being swallowed by a large fish.

Jesus believed in some of the most disputed stories in the Bible, particularly Noah, Adam and Eve, Sodom and Gomorrah, and Jonah. People who think that the Bible is mostly good stories that didn’t really happen always point to those four stories.
If Jesus really believed in Jonah, then I should, too. I don’t know how God created a fish who could swallow a guy, but he did.

I trust in the Bible because Jesus trusted in it.

Talk About It

Are there parts of the Bible that you have trouble believing? Why?
What do you think God wants to accomplish in your life through his Word?

MJ


#2

I don't particularly care for Mr. Warren, but the books from the old testement were around when Jesus was on Earth.


#3

Look.
Jesus is GOD.
As GOD, He, with the Spirit and the Father,
IS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR of the Holy Scriptures.
As such,
when on Earth as the god-Man, (which he still is, resurrected, in heaven),
he SURELY knew whether Jonah was real,
or whether there was a literal Adam and a literal Eve
and whether there was a real Sodom and Gomorrah.

He indicated that he, the omniscient one,
believed in all these people and things.

So I do too, and “scientific arguments” be damned, quite frankly.
SCIENTISTS are sinners and FALLIBLE men,
fallible MORALLY and (no matter how educated they are)
FALLIBLE INTELLECTUALLY TOO,
and MOST of them are already unbelievers BEFORE they start studying the Sciences.
And, as unbelievers, they have ample reason to be biased in reporting their findings, even as a vast majority. Not as a conspiracy, but more as a common-mindset.

Just my two cents.
If Jesus said there was a real Noah, then there was. Period.


#4

Pastor Warren, for all of his faith, apparently cannot think of pre-Gutenberg days, when their were no books; no bible as we know it. Jesus read from individual sacred scrolls, which were kept in synagogues and in the Temple. There was no "bible." Remember that there was not even a "Jewish canon" until some decades after Christ had ascended, so how could Jesus have trusted what did not exist?

Luke 4:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

What Jesus trusted was the Apostles, whom He sent forth to teach. They wrote a tiny portion of what Jesus actually did during His ministry. John tells us that the majority of what Jesus did was not written down. Was it then meaningless? Did it have no purpose? Was it lost to the sands of time?

No. It is in the deposit of faith in the Church that Christ founded.


#5

And, as unbelievers, they have ample reason to be biased in reporting their findings, even as a vast majority. Not as a conspiracy, but more as a common-mindset.

I realize that the above is a rather blunt and bold assertion, so I'll back it up with examples that I read personally and found downright shocking.

I have a book I bought during my brief "apostasy" in 2002, called
SCIENTISTS CONFRONT CREATIONISM. It is an attack thru and thru
on fundamentalist creationist beliefs in particular and on ALL belief in a creator-God
in general, thru a series of essays, from cover to cover.

These scientists are definitely biased: willfully and deliberately.
Some of them state that they absolutely will not accept ANY evidence of even ONE
supernatural act, of even ONE miracle, no matter how convincing because they will NOT allow even the possibility that a miracle CAN occur. In other words,
Our Minds are made up, so don't confuse us with facts.
If 70,000 people at Fatima saw the sun spinning wildly and giving off many colors and,
though standing in the rain on thick rain-soaked, thick mud, their clothes were dry AND the wet, thickly muddy ground was TOTALLY dry immediately after the end of the Apparition, well, all those people were simply hallucinating, that's all.
These "scientists" are not objective.
They are BULL-***T Artists who admit that they will, **deliberately, DENY REALITY when it doesn't FIT into their Creator-less beliefs. They openly state, again, that they will NOT, not EVER, accept ANY evidence, no matter how convincing, of ANY miracle. Thus, the blind people at Lourdes who can now see, even though they STILL HAVE NO PUPILS, well, who the hell cares. Miracles DO NOT OCCUR. "WE", the almighty scientific community, will not allow them.
So please, I don't care what their "findings" are.
In this book, some of them, by saying these kinds of things,
openly admitted that they are, in fact, liars on purpose if they have to be,
to further their godless worldview. They admit that they will not ADMIT FACTS which do not fit into their worldview.
Such people are NOT to be trusted, especially not with their "findings" about the stories
in the word of God.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
PRAY THE ROSARY DAILY


#6

Pastor Warren, for all of his faith, apparently cannot think of pre-Gutenberg days, when their were no books; no bible as we know it. Jesus read from individual sacred scrolls, which were kept in synagogues and in the Temple. There was no "bible." Remember that there was not even a "Jewish canon" until some decades after Christ had ascended, so how could Jesus have trusted what did not exist?

Friend, your statement above is well-intentioned, but misleading.
The Jews, true, did not write their "canon" in stone, so to speak, until the
Council of Jamnia around 135 A.D. but that's not the be-all and end-all of this matter.
The Jews had a centuries long tradition, by the time of Christ,
of their Tanakh, the "Law" and the Prophets and the Psalms and Wisdom book(s).
Most Jews used the Septuagint, (though admittedly on SCROLLS, not pressed between the hard front and back bindings of a portable book!!!), a collection of more than 70 books which was also known as Ptolemy's canon because of all the Jewish scholars who had assembled in Egypt to write it down and collect it.

This "canon" of books was WELL KNOWN TO JESUS and to ALL JEWS who attended the synagogues. The Apostles were VERY familiar with the Septuagint and frequently quoted from it. The Jews regarded these books, on scrolls, as the words of God through his prophets (Moses and the other prophets and psalmists and wisdom writers like Solomon). So yes, the Scriptures DID exist at the time of Christ and He, being their principal author, was more familiar with them than even the scribes and rabbis who would sometimes read from them every day for SEVERAL HOURS a day.
The canon, for the Jews, was "formalized" at Jamnia, when they rejected the Septuagint in favor of the books written all in Hebrew (the Septuagint was a greek language translation from the Hebrew), but they had their scriptures collected for a full two or thrree centuries before Christ was born. They believed that the prophetic spirit, God, the author of scripture, had departed from Israel after the time of Malachi.
Peace and blessings,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
PRAY THE ROSARY DAILY


#7

This is gloriously circular and question begging: the Bible says Jesus trusted scripture. I call the Bible, a book produced after Jesus, scripture. Jesus is God because the Bible tells me so. Therefore I should trust scripture. I think this is why I am a Catholic non-believer.:)


#8

[quote="Hokomai, post:7, topic:274814"]
This is gloriously circular and question begging: the Bible says Jesus trusted scripture. I call the Bible, a book produced after Jesus, scripture. Jesus is God because the Bible tells me so. Therefore I should trust scripture. I think this is why I am a Catholic non-believer.:)

[/quote]

You're a Catholic non-believer because of sola scriptura, which isn't Catholic?

Who's the illogical one now?

What you mean to say is you will only believe what you want, or what you can see.

That's not belief, that's selective faith and ignorant knowledge. You see clouds, but I bet you can't explain their formation or their science to a level of the men who write books on such things, and get paid to teach it.

People exercise faith in what they don't know, but have been told, every day. You're no different, smarter, or special in this regard.

You're right, Sola Scriptura is stupid. That's why Protestants can't decide on a philosophy to bring about theological doctrine: because the Bible is so layered, intimate knowledge of tradition is necessary.

Your questions will not all be answered.

You are a cup that dips itself into the ocean and says, "I'm full! I contain the ocean!", when in reality, you have a cup full of ocean water. No matter how many times you dump yourself and refill, you'll never contain the ocean.

Be grateful for the drops that moisten your rim, and let the dew rest on you like a tired grandfather. Remind him of what he told you, and you will remember why he told you in the first place.

Or just let him die in a nursing home, alone, while you fancy yourself as partaking in the will.


#9

I think Rick is the one misleading here.

There were no pens first of all those days nor when the Septuagint was used. He's using the NIV a protestant Bible this time to state his case (mind you he uses different Bibles each time to state his case).

While Rick may have a point about Jesus using scripture, Warren is wrong by calling the Jewish books a Bible. There was no "Bible" no new Testament. So he can easily misguide by saying it is the written word, but it was not organized with Chapters and Verses which is what we have now.

Lastly, by saying believe in the Bible because Jesus believed in it, really a sloppy way of putting across that we should trust only the Bible because as if it's just there. It had to be put together first for pastor Rick's followers to even read it in the first place. So how was it done? Both the Old and New Testaments?

MJ


#10

[quote="MartinJordan, post:1, topic:274814"]
What do CAF members think of this?

  • Jesus Trusted the Bible. You Should, Too by Rick Warren

Jesus trusted the Bible — every word of it! He taught that the Bible was a unique book, above all the others.

*

[/quote]


#11

From the Wiki (bolding mine)

The Council of Jamnia or Council of Yavne is a hypothetical late 1st-century council at which the canon of the Hebrew Bible was alleged to have been finalized. First proposed by Heinrich Graetz in 1871, this theory was popular for much of the twentieth century. It was increasingly questioned from the 1960s onward, and is no longer considered plausible.


#12

The law as Jesus talks about it is not the same thing as the bible or even judaic scriptures.


#13

Rev. Warren needs to remember that the OT that was used in Christ's time was the Septuagint (which is the version of the OT that the Orthodox use), not the text that most Protestants use. The ones that the Protestants use have a lot less books than the one that Christ used.


#14

As an unqualified observer, it appears to me at least that Pastor Warren significantly broadened the scope of the context of Matthew 5:18, wherein he applies it to the Bible in it’s whole. As I recall, in this passage Jesus was simply stating that He hadn’t come to replace the laws. As you may recall, He had at some point given His own commandment, and this was to clarify that the things he advised on didn’t nullify the laws in the Old Testament. He was talking about Abrahamic or more possibly Mosaic law, and possibly doing so in relation to the commandment He had given.

Just my understanding, and based on this, I have the sense that Pastor Warren went out on a limb and sawed it off behind himself on that one. It doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t believe in the relevance of the scriptures or that He did. It just means He didn’t state it in that passage. Bu even this would be problematic, because there are some pretty horrid laws in the Old Testament.

Your friend,
Sufjon


#15

Well that's kind of a deceitful answer.

Jesus didn't "trust the Bible" - there was no real Bible to speak of when Jesus was on Earth, just the Old Testament scripture.

But then again, there was also an important amount of tradition that accompanied the Old Testament, and the priesthood.

I can't believe that Rick Warren is all for that.:D


#16

[quote="MartinJordan, post:1, topic:274814"]
What do CAF members think of this?

  • Jesus Trusted the Bible. You Should, Too by Rick Warren

“For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18 NIV). . . .*

As others have said, Jesus would have quoted from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures; and of course, Jesus didn't quote the New Testament, because it did not yet exist. I don't think we can assume that Jesus understood O.T. stories as literal. He used many parables in His own teaching.

Peace,
Anna

[/quote]


#17

*I don't think we can assume that Jesus understood O.T. stories as literal. He used many parables in His own teaching. *

Oh yes, we all agree with you that Jesus used many parables in his own teaching.
We can often, 99% of the time really, tell when he is using a parable, because the story is so outlandish, or at least a parable mixed with a real happening, such as the story of Dives and Lazarus (Jesus never used real names to refer to mythical figures in his parables, and he named Lazarus as a person).

But Jesus didn't have mere "understanding" or "interpretations" of the Jewish scritpures, the tanakh, as either literal or parable. HE WAS THE WORD, the very AUTHOR, with the Holy Ghost, of those VERY SAME scriptures, PLEASE let us not forget that !!!
He didn't merely "understand them to mean" certain things, as if mere opinion, however learned the opinion, on his part.
NO. He KNEW whether those scriptures were referring to LITERAL people or not.
He has existed from all eternity. He himself MADE us. He himself, with the Father and the Spirit, INSPIRED the Scriptures. We very often forget that, and the GRAVE IMPLICATIONS of that fact.
So when Jesus refers to Adam and Eve as real, and God's giving them marriage as a gift, he isn't talking about a myth. When he says the flood swept away wicked people, he KNOWS that a flood swept away wicked people because HE sent the darned flood !!!
When he says that Sodom and Gomorrah were blown off the face of the earth,
he KNOWS what he is talking about because he, God Incarnate, is the very one
who blew Sodom and Gomorrah off the face of the earth, yes, our same Jesus of Divine Mercy blew two wicked cities off the face of the earth.
WE are the ones who try to "understand" whether certain scriptures and people mentioned are literal or not. We are not omniscient, we were not there.
Jesus was. When he says that the Israelites passed thru the parted waters, he KNOWS it happened, because HE IS THE ONE who parted the waters.
Please, for all our "modern scripture scholarship" (see the noses in the air of these scholars when they talk about their superior bible knowledge), we do not know 1/100th what Jesus knew. Not even 1/1000th. HE is the God who worked all those Old testament miracles in the Jewish scriptures. He doesn't have to guess whether Adam and Eve were real or not. He KNOWS.


#18

I think this is a strange way of speaking that is unfortunately not uncommon. Reading this you get the sense that the Bible is personified which is really the opposite of what is true. The Bible contains the truth of and reveals God, but it is not God. But his point about Jesus citing and treating as real events and people described in Scripture is excellent. Apparently Jesus had a very different opinion about Biblical stories than many modern folk, including a shocking number of churchmen.


#19

[quote="Jaypeeto4, post:6, topic:274814"]
Pastor Warren, for all of his faith, apparently cannot think of pre-Gutenberg days, when their were no books; no bible as we know it. Jesus read from individual sacred scrolls, which were kept in synagogues and in the Temple. There was no "bible." Remember that there was not even a "Jewish canon" until some decades after Christ had ascended, so how could Jesus have trusted what did not exist?

Friend, your statement above is well-intentioned, but misleading.
The Jews, true, did not write their "canon" in stone, so to speak, until the
Council of Jamnia around 135 A.D. but that's not the be-all and end-all of this matter.
The Jews had a centuries long tradition, by the time of Christ,
of their Tanakh, the "Law" and the Prophets and the Psalms and Wisdom book(s).
Most Jews used the Septuagint, (though admittedly on SCROLLS, not pressed between the hard front and back bindings of a portable book!!!), a collection of more than 70 books which was also known as Ptolemy's canon because of all the Jewish scholars who had assembled in Egypt to write it down and collect it.

This "canon" of books was WELL KNOWN TO JESUS and to ALL JEWS who attended the synagogues. The Apostles were VERY familiar with the Septuagint and frequently quoted from it. The Jews regarded these books, on scrolls, as the words of God through his prophets (Moses and the other prophets and psalmists and wisdom writers like Solomon). So yes, the Scriptures DID exist at the time of Christ and He, being their principal author, was more familiar with them than even the scribes and rabbis who would sometimes read from them every day for SEVERAL HOURS a day.
The canon, for the Jews, was "formalized" at Jamnia, when they rejected the Septuagint in favor of the books written all in Hebrew (the Septuagint was a greek language translation from the Hebrew), but they had their scriptures collected for a full two or thrree centuries before Christ was born. They believed that the prophetic spirit, God, the author of scripture, had departed from Israel after the time of Malachi.
Peace and blessings,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
PRAY THE ROSARY DAILY

[/quote]

Indeed... Good post.

I like Rick Warren... Appreciate his work.
His love for Scripture should be shared by all Christians.

However, in the passage cited, I think pastor Warren mixes up Law and Scripture.. These two words do not mean the same when Jesus mentioned them.


#20

I noticed pastor Warren is careful to avoid using the other Bibles like the NLT or the KJV (which he does use from time to time) to state his (faulty) case here.

KJV: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

NLT: I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

I don't see the word "Pen" anywhere :p

MJ


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