ritual purity....


#1

Where in the Gospels does Jesus basically say, “You don’t need to do all that stuff anymore”?


#2

Nobody knows? :smiley:


#3

Are you saying Peter and the Apostles got it wrong in Acts of the Apostles?


#4

[quote=sweetchuck]Where in the Gospels does Jesus basically say, “You don’t need to do all that stuff anymore”?
[/quote]

I’m sorry, maybe I’m missing something, but what “stuff” are we exactly talking about here? If it’s the “ritual purity” as indicated by the title then the answer is He didn’t (at least not that I know of) at least not in the Gospels. HOWEVER, He did say so through the Apostles. (see Acts 15:1-12)

RSV Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles, and they gave great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” 12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.


#5

Is there a time limit? I didn’t hear the clock ticking.

Anyway, the strict answer is no place. The entire New Testament is a departure from the Old. And, Jesus begins the transition in various ways, such as when the disciples are picking grain on the Sabbath.

Mt 12: 1 At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads* of grain and eat them.
12:2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath."
12:3 He said to them, * “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry,
12:4 how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat?
12:5 * Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent?
12:6 I say to you, something greater than the temple is here.
12:7 * If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned these innocent men.
12:8 * For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.” NAB

Your question is a subtle seque into the seventh-day Sabbath and the whole thing like that, right? And, that’s perfectly fine.

Harold Camping (evangelical bible teacher) of Family Radio, Oakland CA, explains the Sunday “Sabbath” in a non-Catholic way by citing

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week *when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight. NAB

Camping would say that the “first day of the week” is Sunday, and this is the Biblical precedent of worshipping on Sunday. Of course, the Catholic comment would be that the book was written after the event, and the practice had already been established in the Church of worshipping on the day that commemorates the Resurrection of Jesus.

Also, read Jn 20:19-26 which shows the disciples meeting, again, on the “first day of the week.”

And, of course, in Acts, the whole question of the need for circumcision is discussed and resolved in what some call the “council of Jerusalem.” See Romans 2:28-29 One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.
Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.

And, consider,

Galations 5:6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Oh, please, read the book of Hebrews. The writer, maybe Paul, says that if observing the Law brought righteousness, then Jesus would not have needed to be born, suffer, and die. And, this is stated very eloquently and persuasively there.

For example, Heb 10:1 Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come,* and not the very image of them, it can never make perfect those who come to worship by the same sacrifices that they offer continually each year. NAB

and it goes on to say that the old temple sacrifices needed to be repeated over and over, but that the sacrifice of Jesus had the finality that put the old ineffective sacrifices to an end.

This covers a lot of the “stuff” that you may be referring to.

Peace


#6

I thought the Jews were still supposed to continue doing all that “stuff” while Jesus was alive.

Jesus himself sent healed lepers to show themselves to the priest and make offerings (this is not for fun, there is a provision in the law), but I don’t know what is the significance of this. Perhaps to show the priests something.


#7

:eek:

Good Lord! Everyone calm down. It’s not some sort of sinister agenda-driven question. I phrased it the way I did because I couldn’t remember his exact wording, else it would be easy for me to find it in the concordance. Nevermind. Didn’t mean to offend everyone. I guess I’ll just start reading the Gospels from Matt. 1:1 and postpone trying to explain to a friend why the morality of Lev. 18:22 is still applicable for today but why not eating animals who chew the cud is not. Sheesh.

“Stuff”!


#8

Good Lord! Everyone calm down. It’s not some sort of sinister agenda-driven question. I phrased it the way I did because I couldn’t remember his exact wording, else it would be easy for me to find it in the concordance. Nevermind. Didn’t mean to offend everyone. I guess I’ll just start reading the Gospels from Matt. 1:1 and postpone trying to explain to a friend why the morality of Lev. 18:22 is still applicable for today but why not eating animals who chew the cud is not. Sheesh.

“Stuff”!
[/quote]

A few thoughts: (many of which came from the bible studies I have done with Jeff Cavins).
In the old testament, holiness for the Jews meant being separate. They were spiritually immature and could not defend themselves against the pagan world. God’s laws of their time were meant to protect them from this danger. In a way God “put them in the corner”, a time out, if you will. Over time, the scribes and pharisee attempted to proclaim this time out condition as the means to salvation.
Jesus, in the beatitudes, restores the spirit of God’s law, and chastises the scribes and pharisees for losing sight of it. In addition he declares a new law that demands even more than the old law. In other words, you should find the essence the ten commandments, and more in the beatitudes.

So, to the extent that the old rules where about separation, they were superceded by the new law which came with the promise of the Holy Spirit to give us the power for obey the new, “higher bar”, commandments.


#9

[quote=sweetchuck]I guess I’ll just start reading the Gospels from Matt. 1:1 and postpone trying to explain to a friend why the morality of Lev. 18:22 is still applicable for today but why not eating animals who chew the cud is not.
[/quote]

Three people already answered that for you; it’s in Acts, not the Gospels.


#10

Maybe I’ve already said enough stuff ;), but hmmm, I really don’t offhand know of a place where Jesus himself says what you are looking for. Do you have any other ideas about what key words might be in the phrase?

Are you looking for the thing about tithing mint and rue or about clean cups (inside vrs outside) or for the not one iota of the law will pass away until all is fulfilled?

OOOh are you looking for where all foods are declared clean? I got that one:

18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

From Mark 7


#11

Good Lord! Everyone calm down. Sheesh.
“Stuff”!
[/quote]

Consider,

Rev 3:14 * "To the angel of the church in Laodicea,* write this: " 'The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the source of God’s creation, says this:
3:15 "I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. * I wish you were either cold or hot.
3:16 * So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
3:17 * For you say, ‘I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,’ and yet do not realize that **you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.*3:18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire * so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see.
3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent.
3:20 " '"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me.

See? We dine here. There’s no fast food.


#12

If I knew more about your angle I might be able to help you find what you are looking for. There are some comments in the Gospels that are remarks from Jesus about ritual purity.

Have a look at Matthew chapter 15.

"Pharisees and scribes from Jerusalem then came to Jesus and said: "Why do your disciples break away from the tradition of the elders? They do not wash their hands when they eat food?..

He called the people to him and said 'Listen and understand. What goes into the mouth does not make a man unclean; it is what comes out of the mouth that makes him unclean…

From the heart comes evil intentions: murder, adultery, fornication, theft, perjury, slander. These are the things that make a man unclean. But to eat with unwashed hands does not make a man unclean…"

Maggie


#13

[quote=Pug]Maybe I’ve already said enough stuff ;), but hmmm, I really don’t offhand know of a place where Jesus himself says what you are looking for. Do you have any other ideas about what key words might be in the phrase?

Are you looking for the thing about tithing mint and rue or about clean cups (inside vrs outside) or for the not one iota of the law will pass away until all is fulfilled?

OOOh are you looking for where all foods are declared clean? I got that one:

18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

From Mark 7
[/quote]

THANK you! That’s what I was looking for. See people? That wasn’t that hard. :wink:


#14

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