Romans 6:7


#1

I am having this discussion with JW:)

Romans 6:7 from the DR For he that is dead is justified from sin.

DR. Commentary: Ver. 7. He that is dead is justified from sin.[1] Some translate, is freed from sin: this is true; but perhaps it is better to retain the word justified, which is observed to be a law-word used in courts of justice, where to be justified is to be acquitted, so that a man cannot be questioned again on that account; and so are sinners, when their sins are forgiven. (Witham)

Does this mean that when we are baptized into Christ's death that we a acquitted of sin?:confused:

Does it mean that when we physically die we are acquitted of sin?:confused:

If we are acquitted of sin wouldn't that mean it would be like we never sinned?:confused:

And if so than how can we be punished for the acquitted sin?:confused:

And that God does not remember our sins?:confused:

And if God doesn't remember our sins would we be free from punishment ( purgatory)?

Are the scriptures that suggest purgatory contradictory to Romans 6:7?:confused:

I am sorry if my thoughts are scattered but I am finding it hard to reconcile Romans 6:7 with purgatory.:shrug:

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks


#2

[quote="Phyllo, post:1, topic:315188"]
I am having this discussion with JW:)

Romans 6:7 from the DR For he that is dead is justified from sin.

DR. Commentary: Ver. 7. He that is dead is justified from sin.[1] Some translate, is freed from sin: this is true; but perhaps it is better to retain the word justified, which is observed to be a law-word used in courts of justice, where to be justified is to be acquitted, so that a man cannot be questioned again on that account; and so are sinners, when their sins are forgiven. (Witham)

Does this mean that when we are baptized into Christ's death that we a acquitted of sin?:confused:

Does it mean that when we physically die we are acquitted of sin?:confused:

If we are acquitted of sin wouldn't that mean it would be like we never sinned?:confused:

And if so than how can we be punished for the acquitted sin?:confused:

And that God does not remember our sins?:confused:

And if God doesn't remember our sins would we be free from punishment ( purgatory)?

Are the scriptures that suggest purgatory contradictory to Romans 6:7?:confused:

I am sorry if my thoughts are scattered but I am finding it hard to reconcile Romans 6:7 with purgatory.:shrug:

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

[/quote]

Our justification takes at baptism when we receive sanctifying grace for the first time.
So I would think that "justified from sin" would mean that original sin is eliminated by sanctifying grace which justifies us as children of God.

Just a thought.


#3

I am finding it hard to reconcile Romans 6:7 with purgatory.

Purgatory is not a place of punishment, it's a place of repair and cleansing, that most every soul enters eternity in need of. Purgatory deals with the residual effects of sin.

Classic allegory:

Kids are playing ball too near a neighbor's house. Ball goes through a window. Neighbor calls the kids on the carpet. Kid's say they are sorry. The neighbor forgives the kids. But the window is still broken. It has to be repaired.

From the CCC

  1. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580

  2. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"


#4

According to this text and Catholic theology, upon reception of the Sacrament of Baptism a person is born anew as a child of God. As such all sin, original sin and those committed by the candidate prior to baptism, are washed away. Upon baptism one is given new birth and new life.–John 3:5.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies. Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the “imperishable seed” of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect*.—CCC 1227, 1228, citing 1 Pet 1:23; cf. Eph 5:26.*

For adult candidates entering the Catholic Church, prior to baptism their training would naturally have already included learning how to participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So in most cases there is no serious sin to wash away at the time of baptism, even though the sacrament would take care of it by its very nature.

Since a person who has just received baptism is in a state of grace, an immediate death following reception of the sacrament would not require further purification from sin, therefore negating the reason for purgation (the state of requiring further purgation or purification from sin and the guilt associated with such sin is thus theologically referred to as “purgatory”).

Even after a lifetime of service to God as a baptized Christian, which likely will include falling under the weight of various sins from time to time, does not automatically entail further purgation after one’s death. Only God knows who requires further purification or further application of the benefits of Christ’s atoning sacrifice after their earthly course has ended.


#5

Oh, one more thing.

The text of Romans 6:7, “a dead person has been absolved from sin,” is actually illustrating how a living Christian is to view himself, not what they are to view about their condition after death.

Saint Paul was stating that the death of a sinner balances the scales of justice for the sins they committed. However this would negate any chance of eternal life for anyone. That is why Paul used the term “absolved” in this text, meaning that the person in question is “declared” free from blame, guilt, or responsibility, even though the person may literally be guilty, blameworthy and responsible for an action they committed.

People don’t automatically lose their personality after death and become something and someone entirely different upon entering eternal life. Just the fact that a person is merely “absolved” or “acquitted” means that they can still be viewed as guilty of sin. History isn’t erased. If we did someone wrong and then died before we fixed things, those still alive after we have passed may still suffer greatly due to our sins. Our deaths don’t make things automatically right for those we’ve wronged.

How God balances out all our effects from sin in reference not only to ourselves but the effect these sins may have on others, on history, on the world–even after our death–shows the extent and power of the purification (purgation) of Christ’s death on the Cross.

But again, as stated in the beginning, the context of Romans 6:7 is instruction about how Christians are to live after baptism, not about the technical details of how God acquits persons from their sins after death (details we will likely never know in full during this life).

The meaning of this text is what St. Paul states in versus 10 and 11, illustrating that Jesus “died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God. Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as being dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus.”

So live your life now as if sin has no control over you. You are “dead” in Christ. Only Christ lives, not you. Therefore when sin tempts you don’t give in, for a dead person cannot respond to temptation and carry out a sin.


#6

Going back to chapter 5, it appears that Paul is speaking to a group of Christians that he describes as being 'justified by faith'.(the traditional way of current Catholics).They had not yet cast off the old man, (died to sin) and received the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Paul, on the other hand, came to Christ by way of an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Paul had already died to sin and was fully justified . He is telling them that if they are to be justified and receive the Holy Spirit 'fully" they must put their life in Christ totally, and die to sin
Don


#7

[quote="CJeplin, post:5, topic:315188"]
Oh, one more thing.

The text of Romans 6:7, "a dead person has been absolved from sin," is actually illustrating how a living Christian is to view himself, not what they are to view about their condition after death.

[/quote]

So then the "dead person" is the one who is baptized in Christ's death and not literally dead?

Thanks for your response. I found it enlightening.


#8

[quote="DonMack, post:6, topic:315188"]
Going back to chapter 5, it appears that Paul is speaking to a group of Christians that he describes as being 'justified by faith'.(the traditional way of current Catholics).They had not yet cast off the old man, (died to sin) and received the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Paul, on the other hand, came to Christ by way of an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Paul had already died to sin and was fully justified . He is telling them that if they are to be justified and receive the Holy Spirit 'fully" they must put their life in Christ totally, and die to sin
Don

[/quote]

Thanks for your response.


#9

Thanks to all. I think I understand the verse now.
God Bless


#10

[quote="Phyllo, post:1, topic:315188"]
I am having this discussion with JW:)

Romans 6:7 from the DR For he that is dead is justified from sin.

DR. Commentary: Ver. 7. He that is dead is justified from sin.[1] Some translate, is freed from sin: this is true; but perhaps it is better to retain the word justified, which is observed to be a law-word used in courts of justice, where to be justified is to be acquitted, so that a man cannot be questioned again on that account; and so are sinners, when their sins are forgiven. (Witham)

Does this mean that when we are baptized into Christ's death that we a acquitted of sin?:confused:

Does it mean that when we physically die we are acquitted of sin?:confused:

If we are acquitted of sin wouldn't that mean it would be like we never sinned?:confused:

And if so than how can we be punished for the acquitted sin?:confused:

And that God does not remember our sins?:confused:

And if God doesn't remember our sins would we be free from punishment ( purgatory)?

Are the scriptures that suggest purgatory contradictory to Romans 6:7?:confused:

I am sorry if my thoughts are scattered but I am finding it hard to reconcile Romans 6:7 with purgatory.:shrug:

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

[/quote]

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 7. He that is dead is justified from sin.[1] Some translate, is freed from sin: this is true; but perhaps it is better to retain the word justified, which is observed to be a law-word used in courts of justice, where to be justified is to be acquitted, so that a man cannot be questioned again on that account; and so are sinners, when their sins are forgiven. (Witham)


#11

We are justified in Christ, when we are baptized, we are justified. But, any sin that comes up after that needs to be confessed in order for our lives to remain justified. I once heard (in a protestant leaning theology) that this means "we are just-as-if-I've never sinned."


#12

[quote="Christy_Beth, post:11, topic:315188"]
We are justified in Christ, when we are baptized, we are justified. But, any sin that comes up after that needs to be confessed in order for our lives to remain justified. I once heard (in a protestant leaning theology) that this means "we are just-as-if-I've never sinned."

[/quote]

My JW friend believes that once we are physically dead we are free from all sin and the punishment that would be attached to that sin. I can imagine that in her mind (to be fair, I haven't asked her this but I will the next time I see her) we can do whatever in life and once we are dead all is forgiven. This just doesn't sound right to me.


#13

What I meant was, all sins up to that point are forgiven. After that, we have confession to "help us out." I'm not sure I'm saying this in the best way. When I'm writing, what I'm trying to get across makes a lot of sense to me, but it may not come across the way I want it to. :o Martin Luther also believed that we could do everything and get away with it. But God is love, and sometimes that love means to prove it by discipline.


#14

[quote="Christy_Beth, post:13, topic:315188"]
What I meant was, all sins up to that point are forgiven. After that, we have confession to "help us out." I'm not sure I'm saying this in the best way. When I'm writing, what I'm trying to get across makes a lot of sense to me, but it may not come across the way I want it to. :o Martin Luther also believed that we could do everything and get away with it. But God is love, and sometimes that love means to prove it by discipline.

[/quote]

I know what you mean. My fingers type things differently that my mind thinks. Very frustrating.:)

My understanding of this verse is that we are baptized into Christs death so that we we "die this death--death in Christs baptism --that we are acquitted of sin. Than as you said we can still sin after but we have confession to help us out.


#15

From the Ignatius Study Bible:

Literally, "is justified from sin" (CCC 1990).

Hahn, Scott; Mitch, Curtis (2010-06-14). The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament (Kindle Locations 16216-16217). Ignatius Press. Kindle Edition.

From the CCC:

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm


#16

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