Romans

I have studied Paul’s Epistle to the Romans for the last eighteen months.

I have come to many good ideas and conclusions.

I believe the discussion might center around this topic: How can any person lose their salvation?

God saves us with His love!

And St. Paul says all people!

I believe St. Paul agrees with St. Luke’s Gospel 10: 25-27. We inherit eternal Life by love–God’s love infused into our hearts! If one accepts that–the Parable of the Good Samaritan is not needed.

Merry Christmas!

The “Good Samaritan” is Jesus. We are the one who was mugged and left to die. He rescues us and promises to return “on the third day”.:slight_smile:

Salvation is a gift from God purchased by the blood of His Son.

The only way to lose Salvation is to refuse the gift, throw it away or put it in a closet and forget about it.

Happy Jesus’ birthday to you as well Jim.

I think using the phrase "lose salvation’ is misleading. How can we speak of someone losing that which they have not yet attained? We enter salvation at baptism,a nd work it out through our lives on earth, but we are not united to our heavenly inheritance until the end of this life.

By committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentant.

Matthew 10-22 …but whoever endures to the end will be saved…?..
Salvation is a journey not an event.:thumbsup:

Agreed!

We are saved by His Love!

This is one of the most central ideas of our Christian faith–If not the most central.

The magisterium teaches the universal salvific will of God: He wills all persons to be saved. So the OFFER of salvation is universal.

But since we are conceived, due to original sin, without the state of grace, we must find that state in this life, in order to accept the offer. There are only three ways for fallen sinners to enter the state of grace: baptism by water, or by desire, or by blood.

Once we enter the state of grace in one of these three ways, we can only lose this state of grace, which is absolutely necessary at death for salvation, by actual mortal sin (of commission or omission). If we fall away from the state of grace, then we must return, before death, by either imperfect contrition and Confession, or perfect contrition.

Ron, TARRAT, thistle, guanophore, SAVINGRACE, eazyduzit:

I agree!

However, one is saved by His Love! Romans yells that point.

How God saves peoples of all the other religions and no religions is also by His Love.

How God saves the billion or trillions that are not Christian is also by His Love.

I do not know how He does it. But He does.

I am not sure, but I think I have read that the Church teaches that point–there is salvation outside of the Church, but not outside of Jesus Christ!

God pours His Love on all people. It is His Love that saves us.

I am open to all points of discussion. *** I am trying to believe and then understand–not fight!***

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)

All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery. (22)

Are you perhaps aiming for universal salvation in your thinking?

The one who saves also does the judging. And Jesus said

Mt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few

Jesus looking forward is giving us that answer.

As an aside, those in purgatory ultimately go to heaven. So they are included in the few. That’s telling us, the rest go to hell.

Jim.
The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and that baptism is necessary for salvation. What does that mean? A person is deemed to be Catholic by:

  • Sacramentally baptised as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (that means a Non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
  • Baptism of Desire - explicit (e.g. a catechumen)
  • Baptism of Desire - implicit (invincible ignorance whereby a person who through no fault of their own does not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but lives a good life in accordance with the teachings of Christ in that ignorance. Such a person MAY (not will) be saved)

Outside the above 4 nobody will be saved.

With regard to invincible ignorance the Church does not know which individuals or groups might be saved which is why it has no teaching on specifically who falls under this umbrella.
Personally, (and this is just my opinion - others may disagree) I believe very few will come under invincible ignorance. In this day and age of technology and communications most people have the opportunity to find out about Christ, his Gospel and his Church if they choose to do so.

Yes, we are saved by His love-and we’ll be judged on* our *love-with what we did with the love we we’ve been shown-and given.

We will be judged by the state of our soul at death. If we die in a state of grace we are saved (either Straight to Heaven or Purgatory first). If we die in a state of mortal sin then we go immediately to Hell (no matter how good and loving we have been during our lives).

I may be misreading what you have said (please correct me if I misunderstood you and I apologise) but it sounds like you are suggesting that when we die God will weigh up the good and bad things we have done and if the good far outweighs the bad then we will be saved which of course is not the case.

The good we do during our lives has no merit if we die in a state of mortal sin.

This is correct to the extent that it’s properly understood. What is meant by “the state of our soul”? Justice in man isn’t comprised merely of a sort of austere self-denial, abstinence from sin, as if we’ll be saved as long as we can just somehow skate along until death without falling into serious sin. Justice for man-God’s expectation for us- has an extremely positive note, having to do with the changes and transformation God desires to effect in us, changes that preclude sin by their nature. From the CCC:

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Here’s another, ending with a famous quote by St John of the Cross:

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.
“At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.”

Mortal sin is sort of the flip-side of love. Mortal sin opposes and destroys love of God and neighbor in us:

**1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.**

People don’t always understand that love isn’t a sort of side note to the gospel and our faith; it’s the very core of it. We can refrain from sin while not yet having attained to true justice. Mortal sin however, is a complete turning away from justice, from love, from God.

Frankly, I have met very few Catholics who have read the CCC.

“state of our soul” at death is clear. You either die in a state of mortal sin or a state of grace. Good works done out of love during our life only have merit if you die in a state of grace.

A good and holy person throughout their life might commit a mortal sin just before death and not repent and die in a state of mortal sin and consequently go immediately to Hell.
On the other hand the most brutal mass murderer and rapist throughout their life could sincerely repent and turn to God and die in a state of grace and be saved.

While we should all live our whole lives according to Christ’s teachings we should remember it is the state of our soul at death that determines our destination so if we commit a mortal sin we should get to Confession as soon as possible.

Yes, well I’ve read it all. Everyone should IMO.

Did you understand what makes us just according to the CCC? This refers to the state of our soul-and these teachings have been worked out over centuries. Did you understand the relationship between mortal sin and love? Does para 1022 make sense to you?

First, when you live in a developing country trying to find food for your family to survive and hope you can get medical treatment and basic education the last thing people have scarce money to spend on is a CCC. The vast majority of Catholics in the world will go through their entire life without having read the CCC.
The population of the Philippines is nearly 100 million of which about 85 million are Catholics. About 40% live below the poverty line (i.e. live on less than the equivalent of USD 2 per day). Try telling them they should spend that scarce money on the CCC.

Second, by definition a mortal sin cannot be committed by accident therefore mortal sin is a deliberate rejection of God’s love.

CCC 1022 is what I already said in my own words. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go immediately to Hell and if you die in a state of grace you are saved (either straight to Heaven or Purgatory first).

If we are saved then good works done during our earthly lives have merit.

Ok. I don’t really expect everyone to read the Catechism-I just think it’d be great if they did. I’m still trying to understand your argument. Is there something-anything-I posted that conflicts in the slightest with Catholic teaching? Explaining the teachings more fully, making them more understandable- was the purpose. Since we obviously can’t or don’t all read the Church’s teachings ourselves. :slight_smile:

It would also be good to consider the following teachings, remembering that everything, including the ability to remain free from sin, is initiated or aided by grace.

**1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere “to the end” and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for “all men to be saved.” She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:

Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.” The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.”

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the “holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
**

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