Russian Patriarch sets criteria for Pope


#1

A long-desired trip by Pope John Paul II to Russia could only occur if the Vatican renounces efforts to expand Rome-affiliated churches in traditional Christian Orthodox areas, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church said.


dailycomet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050111/API/501110787


#2

Unless the Orthodox (even just particularly the Russian Orthodox) renounces the same in traditionally Catholic lands, I think not only the Christian community at large, but also the human community might heap a bunch of criticism on the Russian Patriarch.

God bless,

Greg


#3

Perhaps I’m missing something here. If the Pope wants to visit Catholic churches in Russia, why does he need the Russian patriarch’s permission?

Scullinius


#4

Can the Russian Patriarch presume to speak for the rest of the Orthodox community in such a way? What if another Patriarch does not mind his Catholic neighbors, and doesn’t mind another Catholic parish here and there in his traditional boundaries?


#5

[quote=Scullinius]Perhaps I’m missing something here. If the Pope wants to visit Catholic churches in Russia, why does he need the Russian patriarch’s permission?
[/quote]

Why indeed? I think that the Pope should just ignore the schismatic Russian Patriarch, and get on with the task of spreading the Gospel in Russia.

… in the end my Immaculate Heart shall triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me which will be converted …

prophesy of Our Lady of Fatima


#6

Let me get my Foghorn out.

BULLLLLL$$########!!!%%%%%%.


#7

///

[quote=Matt16_18]Why indeed? I think that the Pope should just ignore the schismatic Russian Patriarch, and get on with the task of spreading the Gospel in Russia.

… in the end my Immaculate Heart shall triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me which will be converted …

prophesy of Our Lady of Fatima///

*The NT Gospel has been spread throughout Russian for the last 900 or so years. What Gospel are you referring to that has not made it there? The Word of God was suppressed during the Communist domination but remained in the hearts and minds of the many of the peasants especially the Babas. Russia was always dedicated to the Blessed Mother St. Mary and many churches were dedicated in her honor. Her namesake churches were dedicated over the length and breath of the once titled Holy Russia. The Mother of God is nothing new to Russia, for she has been honored for many centuries. There is nothing new the RCC can teach the Russian people about the Mother of God. *

*StMarkEofE *

[/quote]


#8

[quote=Scullinius]Perhaps I’m missing something here. If the Pope wants to visit Catholic churches in Russia, why does he need the Russian patriarch’s permission?
[/quote]

Because the Pope is showing the same respect for a bishop which he expects shown towards himself. We have had at least two discussions on this point in the past so let me see if I can briefly sum up what it is:

Putin has invited the Pope several times to come to Russia since it is one of the most closely held personal wishes of the Pontiff to do so. He has prayed for this for years and worked tirelessly toward doing so. However the Pope as bishop and shepherd would be making the visit as a “churchman”, not as a head of state thus he will not show disrespect for another bishop by coming when the invitation from the church has not been forthcoming.

It is his expression of collegiality, good manners and respect for the traditional head of the Orthodox faith which is the major faith in Russia proper.

The Orthodox reciprocate in kind - they simply do not come flying into Rome, the seat of the Catholics and open churches and establish missions. Not too long ago in order to allow for the Orthodox congregations in Rome, JPII gave a church to them, it has now been extensively and beautifully renovated and is supposed to be a small jewel. . All of this took a close working relationship between the Pope, the Ecumenical commission at the curia and the Orthodox themselves.

As I quoted yesterday from the pope’s own statements, he understands well the feelings, the misapprehensions, the reservations of Catholics, Eastern rites within the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox. There is a long and sad history in many ways between east and west, and while the pope understands the “rules and regs” he knows in this case the pastoral relations between all these groups is every bit as important as is the paper.

He is building a bridge of behavior, of respect, of civility - he is trying despertely to rid the RCC in this area of any imperial or intimidating measures - he is putting his actions where his mouth is. Would that all of us could exercise his patience, his humility and his focus on the big issue - unity.

Personally there are days I lose patience, I lose humility and I
:banghead: but one must keep in mind the Orthodox and in many cases Eastern Rites keep the early church and its early Fathers and councils as fresh and alive as if they were of today. For them they are. That is one of their great gifts to the Church - We here in the west where everything happens in a 30 second sound byte must understand that along with that gift comes the memories of other things…that is why the Pope makes clear that if our tomorrow is to be spent “united”, purification of memory on BOTH sides must occur. It’s easier in the west, Vatican II has turned our world upside down for so long we are now used to “change” - this thankfully has not occurred for the other rites or for the Orthodox and so they proceed, slowly, cautiously and working their way through the process – there is an old English Catholic joke, which perhaps will illustrate what I am trying to say:

Man #1 - I must say, I just returned from York and I was most unhappy about the way I was treated there.

Man #2-What d’ya mean - the Catholic community wasn’t welcoming?

Man #1- Precisely. All kind of secretive and one worded conversation. Couldn’t seem to be friendly or hospitable at all.

Man #2 - Well you have to understand, that’s due to all the killing and looting - they’re suspicious of strangers.

Man #1- Indeed. I hadn’t heard about it at all - when did this happen?

Man #2 - In the 14th century of course.


#9

After what happened with the ‘Quadripartite Agreement’ in the 1990’s it will be a long time before this Pope regains the respect and trust of Patriarch Alexi.

For those who are unaware, the ‘Quadrapartite Agreement’ was a joint agreement between the Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, and Roman Catholic Churches regarding the former Greek Catholic parishes incorporated in the 1940’s. Since a whole generation or more was brought up with an Orthodox identity it was agreed that each parish would decide by vote on whether they wanted to remain Orthodox or return to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. The church building would then be turned over to the majority vote and provisions would be made to try and make arrangements for the minority. Two representatives from each of the four churches would over see the elections. Six weeks after the agreement was initiated the UGCC turned its back on the agreement and started to take over the churches by force. For two years Alexi sent messages to the Pope to honor the agreement and speak out on what was happening. The Pope remained silent.

This is the issue the Patriarch wants on the agenda for any meeting with the Pope but the Pope still refuses to address it.

Until he’s ready he will not enter Russia nor with the Patriarch meet with him.

===

Orthodoc


#10

On the condition that the Patriach of moscow comes back into communion with rome.


#11

[quote=GAssisi]Unless the Orthodox (even just particularly the Russian Orthodox) renounces the same in traditionally Catholic lands, I think not only the Christian community at large, but also the human community might heap a bunch of criticism on the Russian Patriarch.
[/quote]

You must understand that there are two conflicting ecclesiologies operating here.

**The Orthodox ** believe that they are the Una Sancta and Rome, despite the flowery diplomacy which they sometimes exchange, is not.

**The Roman Catholics ** believe that the Orthodox constitute a “sister” Church with all the means necessary for salvation.

By missionising in Catholic territory, the Orthodox are being true to their ecclesiology.

By missionising in Orthodox territory, the Catholics are not being true to their ecclesiology.

All the being said, it remains a fact that when several hundred Catholics, including villages, converted to Orthodoxy in northern Italy about 20 years ago, the Vatican asked Moscow to cease supporting them. To its shame Moscow agreed and dumped these parishes into the wilderness. They remain today, having formed themselves into a non-canonical church group which is called the “Holy Synod of Milan.” So when the Pope asked the Russians to get out of his territory, the Russians complied. Does the Patriarch get your praise for this? :slight_smile:


#12

Dear Hagia Sophia,

You have to keep in mind that the unia has torn families apart and much worse over a few centuries. The Moscow Patriarch and indeed all the Orthodox Bishops are aware of the actions of Latins to remove souls from the Orthodox Church. They have eyes to see and ears to hear etc. The Latin’s often deny this activity and are perceived as not being truthful about the matter, :tsktsk: hence there is a lack of trust which is understandable when the Latin Cardinals tell us they are not interested in pouching souls from Holy Orthodoxy. Hence, I think it fair to say that the Bishop of Rome and other Latin Bishops are often looked upon with much sadness. By the way Orthodox Bishops have telephones to call one another.

There is a internet way I suppose that could demonstrate or substantiate the correct Orthodox perception. Surely anyone with some common sense can see how the denial of these activities by the Latins flies in the face of reality. There is a International Roman Catholic Television Station called EWTN it is used by or connected with the Roman Catholic Church as a vehicle for ministry purposes claiming 250 million viewers and growing etc. It is transmitted to many parts of the world. One of the programs that is often watched is called the Journey Home with Marcus Grodi who speaks of conversion stories to the Roman Catholic Church. Marcus Grodi also has an website the front page reads as follows.

The purpose of The Coming Home Network International (CHNetwork) is to provide fellowship, encouragement and support for pastors and laymen of other traditions (Protestant, Orthodox, etc…) who are somewhere along the journey or have already converted to the Catholic Church. The CHNetwork is committed to assisting and standing beside all inquirers, serving as a friend and an advocate…

Here is the website link. www.chnetwork.org

The above link I understand is often shown as the show is in the broadcast mode. The site also mentions the following;

(In cooperation with the Catholic Bishops, the Coming Home Network International was established to help inquiring clergy as well as laity of other traditions return home and then be at home in the Catholic Church)

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


#13

Dear Orthodoc,

Let me get this straight. First you inform us that there were FOUR distinct parties involved with the Quadripartite Agreement – NOT three, but FOUR. Then you say one of the parties reneged. Then you complain that one of the other parties does not FORCE the other to a certain action. In the meantime, you want the Pope to display actions that would indicate that he is willing to respect the jurisdictional boundaries of other Churches. Lay it out more consistently, Orthodoc. Do you want the Pope to act like a dictator or do you NOT want the Pope to act like a dictator? If the positions were reversed, would you expect Rome to interfere? I thought not. I guess dictatorial actions are OK only if they benefit the Orthodox?

I have not heard your rationale as the reason why the RP is so unwilling to let the Pope visit Russia. Perhaps at least he realizes the inconsistency of the argument.

Dear Father A,

For your rationale to even begin to make sense, you have to prove:

  1. There are no existing Russian Catholics for the Pope to minister to in Russia;

  2. The Russian Catholics are proselytizing. Many people change faiths by their volition because of mere exposure to and interest in it.

Until these are proven by the RP, he is simply being un-Christian. How can you defend that?

And I don’t think anyone here can sympathize with your caricature of the establishment of the “Holy Synod of Milan.” First, if it is as you say, the Pope did not wait over two hundred years to put his foot down about a community that apostatized from the Faith. The Russian Catholic Community is very well-established in Russia, and the RP has absolutely no right in the eyes of God to refuse a Christian community contact with their spiritual leader. Second, the Holy Synod of Milan was not forced to become uncanonical because of Rome. It is a fact that their orders were obtained from a previously (what many consider) uncanonical entity – Old Calendarist bishops. Can you give any evidence of any involvement by the Vatican as to their uncanonical status? Is this another manufactured lie like the supposed atrocities initiated by St. Josaphat, for which no one has been able to give a shred of original documentation except for a book written by someone almost 400 years later? It is true that Rome requested the Russian Patriarchate at one time to not attempt to establish a diocese of Rome, but that was only in regards to procuring that name (as there was already a “bishop of Rome”), not a request to neglect the needs of the Orthodox in Italy. Third, can you deny that there are actually Russian Orthodox Christians presently in Rome (of whatever jurisdiction) whose spiritual needs are being fully met?

Father, I use to give you the benefit of the doubt and did not agree with the characterization given of you by some that you were simply an anti-Catholic bigot or a liar. I always assumed you were simply misinformed of Catholic matters. But the jurisidiction of the Holy Synod of Milan is an Orthodox matter, which you are supposedly competent in. For you to represent the uncanonical establishment of that Church as the fault of the Vatican is beyond the bounds of decency.

(continued)


#14

Dear Matthew.

Back up a bit. First of all, here we have Father A proposing that we should accept the RP’s unchristian attitudes based on the fact that Catholics are not suppose to proselytize Orthodox according to Catholic belief. If you would expect us to deal with this situation according to our own beliefs, then you should not object that we view this situation according to our belief that the Eastern Catholics simply came back to the practice of the Fathers in their unity with Rome. WE are not the ones that are splitting up families by supporting their decision to come into communion with Rome. WE are the ones constantly pleading for a healing of memories. Several here, Eastern and Western (and from my jaunts on other Eastern message boards, it is admitted even by Orthodox), will testify that Orthodox and Catholic can live peaceably together. Your rhetoric is for naught for those who have experienced that people of different faiths (not to mention two who are practically identical in faith) can actually come together to witness to the Christian message in brotherly love. Can you not join in this mutual witness instead of highlighting the differences which is the actual cause of disunity?

Secondly, the Coming Home Network does not proselytize among Orthodox. They are there for the benefit of people who on their own initiative want to come into the Catholic Church. Have you ever read the testimonies of converts to the Catholic faith from “This Rock” Magazine, or even from such popular books on conversion stories such as “Crossing the Tiber” or “Spiritual Journeys,” etc. 99.99999999 % of these testimonies indicate that people normally come into the Catholic Church not due to proselytizing, but because of their own studies and experiences. Your perception of CHN demonstrates only your prejudice, and not any sort of proof that CHN is actually proselytizing among Orthodox. That these people convert without proselytization can only be the work of the Holy Spirit.

I understand that the Orthodox allow proselytizing among Catholics. Judged by the misrepresentations of the Catholic Faith I have read from the Orthodox here, I imagine they will gain some “converts,” in the same way many Catholics are led away from the Church because of misrepresentations by Protestants. But many eventually come back, and that’s a fact. Coming from a Protestant background for which I am thankful, and not vindictive, I am one of those who believe that people should go wherever they will be nurtured in Christ, be it Protestant or Orthodox. But I am also adamant in my belief that all such people will, by the work of the Holy Spirit, eventually return to the unity of the Catholic Church.

God bless,

Greg


#15

Father A: Also remember that while friendly ecumenical terms such as ‘sister church’ may be employed, it still remains Catholic teaching that the Catholic Church is Christ’s ‘one, holy, catholic and apostolic’ Church…and that the Orthodox are schismatic. Salvation is possible in the Eastern Orthodox Churches…but salvation is still normatively found in the Catholic Church, and if an Orthodox Christian knew that the Catholic Church was Christ’s Church, the Orthodox sacraments would not be sufficient.

(No offence intended to any Orthodox Christians out there…just clarifying).

In Christ and Mary,
Tyler


#16

Dear Tyler,

Forgive me for contending with you, but even if an Orthodox comes to realize the truth of unity with the Holy Father, their Sacraments are still “sufficient” as vehicles of grace. If it were not so, we would not be able to receive Orthodox Sacraments in extremis (according to the permission of the Orthodox, of course).

God bless,

Greg


#17

Jerk.

The Orthodox fail to realize that we had churches their prior to Stalin and just want reestablish what we once had we don’t want to turn the RO into Latins. But of course the Orthodox are to bussy makig deals with Putin to take the time and think about it Rationally.
Uh yeah the Patriarch of COnstaniople visits Rome often ROme is not scared Italy will turn into the land of the ORthodox soon. This is idioctic if the Pope Shows up it is a sign of unity for the faiths not a sign the enitre country will be latin. But the irrational RO take the cake everytime.
Besides most of the country is not practicing any religion of anykind it is better for those who don’t connect to the RO to be Latin than nothing at all. What most likely happnes is that most will return to the relgion of their youth Orthodoxy once reminded of the message of the gospel by the Pope.
This is how ridiculous the ORthodox are; The Islamic Leaders of Morocco invited the Pope to come to their country with no problems that is right Islamist making peace with the pope. Yet we have the Orthodox treating him if he’s from some weirdo religion or something. No class at all.


#18

[quote=GAssisi]Until these are proven by the RP, he is simply being un-Christian. How can you defend that
[/quote]

I don’t know in which apologetical school you picked up this rather dishonest technique but you should stop using it.

First you state a a false premise, often disguised (in other posts) as a question. Then you act as if the premise is true and try to put the Orthodox on the back foot by demanding that they justify it. This is dishonest.


#19

[quote=GAssisi][The Russian Catholic Community is very well-established in Russia, and the RP has absolutely no right in the eyes of God to refuse a Christian community contact with their spiritual leader.
[/QUOTE]

This is not true. Nobody, and certainly not the Russian Patriarch, is preventing the Pope visiting his people in Russia.

Putin has issued many invitations to the Pope.

It is the Pope who, somewhat petulantly, refuses to visit his people. For his own reasons the Pope refuses to go to Russia unless the Patriarch approves his visit.

Absolutely nothing prevents the Pope visiting Russia and visiting his people, except his own strange self-imposed pre-conditions. He could get on the papal jet and be in Moscow tomorrow if he chose.
[/quote]


#20

[quote=Fr Ambrose]This is not true. Nobody, and certainly not the Russian Patriarch, is preventing the Pope visiting his people in Russia.

Putin has issued many invitations to the Pope.

It is the Pope who, somewhat petulantly, refuses to visit his people. For his own reasons the Pope refuses to go to Russia unless the Patriarch approves his visit.

Absolutely nothing prevents the Pope visiting Russia and visiting his people, except his own strange self-imposed pre-conditiongs. He could get on the papal jet and be in Moscow tomorrow if he chose.
[/quote]

.

Putin has invited the Pope true but everytime its about to Happen the Orthodox start crying and talks cease it happens all the time.
Everything that I have ever read contradicts your other statements.
As you read everything with a bias it is no wonder you deny the interference of the RO in having the Pope visist Russia your Patriarch has not been cooperative in any way to help thie monumental day to come to fruition


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