Saint Rasputin - no such chance

During current Archiereski Sobor of the Russian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchiate, one humorous occurence. Mitropolit Iuvelanii Krutitski announced that despite “advocates” advancing Tsar Ivan Grozni (Terrible) and Gregorii Rasputin, to be canonized that because of the terror of Ivan and the debauchery of Gregorii, neither will be canonized after “careful study”.

[quote=Volodymyr]During current Archiereski Sobor of the Russian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchiate, one humorous occurence. Mitropolit Iuvelanii Krutitski announced that despite “advocates” advancing Tsar Ivan Grozni (Terrible) and Gregorii Rasputin, to be canonized that because of the terror of Ivan and the debauchery of Gregorii, neither will be canonized after “careful study”.
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I wonder how long the “careful study” took. :slight_smile:

This is what I try to bring up to the Orthodox on this board some of whom are now banned that just as the catholic church sinners so does the orthodox church. But they ignor the obvious that orthodox laymen murdered more Orthodox than catholics did during the crusades of the Orthodox.

Now that is not to justify those horrible attrocites by catholics but to put it into historicla perspective that man inhumaniyt to man spanned both churches. But the Orthdox inisist on their pristine sinlessness of their memebers. Yeah right try to explain Stalin who was in ORthdox seminary and almost was ordained an Orthdox Priest.
Ivan the terrible entered the monastary and reportedly was a monk.
And Rapputin the holy murderer. Look sins abound in all our churches.
But its kind of funny to me how Constantine was declared a saint in the Orthodox church. THey complain about the west interfernce with the state the Emporoers and the patriarchs of the ORthodox church were practically sleeping together.

[quote=Maccabees]But the Orthdox inisist on their pristine sinlessness of their memebers.
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Where did you get that? Orthodoxy teaches the exact opposite. By the way…Rasputin was not really Orthodox. He was a member of a strange sect that had non-Orthodox beliefs.

I think you’re confusing the issue here, the Orthodox Church doesn’t have the use of the sword against heretics and unbelievers enshrined in infallible doctrine.

Ivan the Terrible was a good monarch, as monarchs go and considering his family history, until he went insane, recent findings show he was right in a way to think he was also being poisoned, but it wasn’t deliberate, his bones have been found to contain mercury which was used in the medicines given to cure him…

Stalin was educated at a seminary school in Georgia in his teens when his mother moved mountains to get him a scholarship to an education normally closed even to his potential for academic brilliance. He was influenced by his own to rebel against the Russian suppression of his people and the rest is history. He created his own Church continuing on from his hero Lenin who stated that if the Russians wanted a Church he would give them a Church, but it would be his Church.

Rasputin a murderer? I think he’s known rather for his highly charged sex life which he managed to keep separate from his highly charged spiritual persona until the rumours of the first met the opposition to the second’s influence on political life .

Constantine was baptised Arian on his deathbed, not in the same league as the Caligulas and Neros of Roman emperors and he did try and get religion…

So what excuse has the RCPC got for its centuries of legally enshrined spiritual doctrines of bloody force to spread the good news of the Prince of Peace?

[quote=Myhrr]Constantine was baptised Arian on his deathbed, not in the same league as the Caligulas and Neros of Roman emperors and he did try and get religion.
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The one who baptised him was certainly an Arian sympathizer, but I rather like to think that the confession of faith Constantine gave was the one hammered out at the council he convened. :slight_smile:

John

[quote=Maccabees]But its kind of funny to me how Constantine was declared a saint in the Orthodox church. THey complain about the west interfernce with the state the Emporoers and the patriarchs of the ORthodox church were practically sleeping together.
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Constantine is a Saint in the Catholic Church as well; his feast day is observed on May 21 in both the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, although his cultus is better known in the latter, where he is venerated as Constantine the Great Sovereign, Equal- to-the-Apostles.

Saint Constantine the Great

Memory of the Holy and Glorious Constantine and Helen, Great Sovereigns & Equals-to-the-Apostles

Many years,

Neil

[quote=Irish Melkite]Constantine is a Saint in the Catholic Church as well; his feast day is observed on May 21 in both the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, although his cultus is better known in the latter, where he is venerated as Constantine the Great Sovereign, Equal- to-the-Apostles.

Neil
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Yeah he’s nor on the western calender so I beleived he wasn’t. I do find it weird that he was declared a saint in the church. But I suppose the church really apprecitated not getting burned to death for the faith anymore. As I rhought the apologist for the stainless Orthodx church deny anything bad ever happening with any person who ever claimed to be Orthodox. Jeez you people are dealing with spin Yeah Ivan the Terrible was good moanrch.:banghead:
Not in honest history book he isn’t.

[quote=Maccabees]Yeah he’s nor on the western calender so I beleived he wasn’t. I do find it weird that he was declared a saint in the church. But I suppose the church really apprecitated not getting burned to death for the faith anymore. As I rhought the apologist for the stainless Orthodx church deny anything bad ever happening with any person who ever claimed to be Orthodox. Jeez you people are dealing with spin Yeah Ivan the Terrible was good moanrch.:banghead:
Not in honest history book he isn’t.
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As monarchs go he was better than many until he went insane.

You’re still equating personal failings and sickness with Orthodox belief - we don’t have a “just war” doctrine for example, war is a sin. You on the other hand have positive doctrines that the RCPC has the divine right to wield a bloody sword against heretics and unbelievers and this is still legally binding dogma - we’re not on the same battlefield.

[quote=Myhrr]As monarchs go he was better than many until he went insane.

You’re still equating personal failings and sickness with Orthodox belief - we don’t have a “just war” doctrine for example, war is a sin. You on the other hand have positive doctrines that the RCPC has the divine right to wield a bloody sword against heretics and unbelievers and this is still legally binding dogma - we’re not on the same battlefield.
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Well to be fair, the Orthodox use the secular arm whenever possible to suppress heretics. Thats what the emperor was for. That way they keep their hands clean. No such situation in the west though since the collapse of the empire.

[quote=Grolsch]Well to be fair, the Orthodox use the secular arm whenever possible to suppress heretics. Thats what the emperor was for. That way they keep their hands clean. No such situation in the west though since the collapse of the empire.
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That it has been done doesn’t make it Orthodox - Orthodox doctrine is clear on this, killing is a sin.

[quote=Myhrr]That it has been done doesn’t make it Orthodox - Orthodox doctrine is clear on this, killing is a sin.
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Yeah but that’s why it seems so disingenuous to the west. Orthodox consider killing a sin but have no trouble hiring mercenaries to do the killing for them. Or if mercenaries are not available then say “well we have to obey the emperor/czar”. To me Augustine’s just war doctrine is more coherent and honest. Not that I’m saying the Orthodox position is dishonest, just not very practical in reality. Sometimes war is necessary…

[quote=Myhrr]As monarchs go he was better than many until he went insane.

You’re still equating personal failings and sickness with Orthodox belief - we don’t have a “just war” doctrine for example, war is a sin.
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War is a terrible evil, obviously; but was the UK to avoid involvement in WW2 ? We could have kept out - and nearly did. But we had moral obligations to Poland. Sitting back and letting it be even more horribly raped than it was, would have been quite unChristian. Sometimes, war is the least hideous course of action one can take.

You on the other hand have positive doctrines that the RCPC has the divine right to wield a bloody sword against heretics and unbelievers and this is still legally binding dogma - we’re not on the same battlefield.

“legally binding dogma” ? Church law can be changed, for sufficient reason; laws can be dispensed from - dogma cannot be dispensed from. Dogma must draw from revelation - legislation must accord with revelation and morals to be good, but need not draw from it. The parish system is a matter of Church law, the Incarnation of the Word is a matter of dogma. Legislation and dogma are both good and useful for the life of the Church - but they are not the same, and do not work in the same way.

And the use of coercion against heretics* is not a dogma*, but was taught, widely, and practiced. IMO, the less said about that subject, the better - it was not a purely RC thing, unfortunately. It’s not fitting to blame the children for the deeds of the fathers. ##

[quote=Grolsch]Well to be fair, the Orthodox use the secular arm whenever possible to suppress heretics. Thats what the emperor was for. That way they keep their hands clean. No such situation in the west though since the collapse of the empire.
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Is that fair to the Orthodox ? :frowning: It’s not as though there had been any executions for heresy lately, thank goodness. IMO, we should let the dead past bury its dead, and not stir it up to accuse our brothers in Christ. None of us can take the credit or blame for what our ancestors centuries ago did. If we left accusations to the one “who accuses the brethren day and night”, we would be far happier and far more Christian, IMO. Christians always seem to be accusing & attacking each other - it’s so unnatural :frowning: No wonder atheists find Christianity sickening. :frowning:

[quote=Grolsch]Yeah but that’s why it seems so disingenuous to the west. Orthodox consider killing a sin but have no trouble hiring mercenaries to do the killing for them. Or if mercenaries are not available then say “well we have to obey the emperor/czar”. To me Augustine’s just war doctrine is more coherent and honest. Not that I’m saying the Orthodox position is dishonest, just not very practical in reality. Sometimes war is necessary…
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Orthodoxy is also clear that hiring a mercanary to do the killing is also a sin, so the person who made the order is a sinner. Orthodox dogma doesn’t say that that is OK.

Also, the Orthodox position on war is very practical. According to Alexander Golitzen, in Orthodoxy there is no just war theory. War may be necessary, but it is ALWAYS a sin. (Sin in Orthodoxy is defined as a movement away from God, and not based completely on culpability–I think Catholics are different on this.) So even if one participates in a necessary war, he must make repentence for what he has done. In other words, the Orthodox believe that there are necessary wars, but they never classify a war as morally righteous.

[quote=Vyacheslav] War may be necessary, but it is ALWAYS a sin. (Sin in Orthodoxy is defined as a movement away from God, and not based completely on culpability–I think Catholics are different on this.) So even if one participates in a necessary war, he must make repentence for what he has done. In other words, the Orthodox believe that there are necessary wars, but they never classify a war as morally righteous.
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  1. Do the Orthodox priests and Bishops who bless the troops and bless the weapons have to do penance? The excommunication period for a soldier is, by the sacred Canons, 3-7 years. Are the bishops also excommunicated for 7 years for not only blessing sin but insisting on it?

  2. Is it possible for Bishops to bless people to commit sin? Are there any other sins which the Church gives her official blessing?

  3. When Saint Sergei Radonezhski blessed, even though reluctantly, Prince Dmitri Donskoi and the war against the infidel, how could he possibly bless something which was a sin? All sin is an abomination in the sight of God. Did Saint Sergei sin against God?

[quote=Myhrr]As monarchs go he was better than many until he went insane.

You’re still equating personal failings and sickness with Orthodox belief - we don’t have a “just war” doctrine for example, war is a sin. You on the other hand have positive doctrines that the RCPC has the divine right to wield a bloody sword against heretics and unbelievers and this is still legally binding dogma - we’re not on the same battlefield.
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You could you the insane card for any monster ie Hitler or Napolean who knows what makes these monster tick.
Your contention that all war is sin is ridiculous. There was a war in heaven was Micheal the archangel sinning when he fought Lucifer? Was Moses sinning? was Joshua? was David? were the Maccabees? etc etc there were many times in the OT where God commissioned his people or was clearly behind his people in warfare. THe Orthoodx took up arms against Islam was that a sin? Was a sin to stop Hitler? Catholcism and yer Orthodoxy is not a Pacifrict faith true the just war theory is something developed in the western church but Pacifism was not part of Orthodoxy I am afriad you have been misinformed you guys are not JEhovah’s witnesses or the Amish or Quakers the Orthodox are permitted to be in the armed forces and bear arms Orthodox countires have fought relgious wars and secualar wars. There is nothing in either tradtion that condemns all wars.
True war it to be a last result and much sin and attrocity comes out of war even when it is justified but it can be justified under some circumstances. Going against Hitler would be justified.

IT sounds like even Father Ambrose an Orthodox priest is calling you out of your false assertions. I question your knowledge of the Orthdox faith young man.:tsktsk:

[quote=Maccabees] I question your knowledge of the Orthdox faith young man.:tsktsk:
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Er, woman ( but then how could you know :smiley: )

[quote=prodromos]Er, woman ( but then how could you know :smiley: )
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Vyacheslav is certainly a masculine name.

Here is a link to an icon of Saint Vyacheslav. Notice the sword in the icon - an indication that it cannot be a sin to wield it or it would not be depicted in his hand.
days.ru/Images/ii441&1725.htm

[quote=Fr Ambrose]Vyacheslav is certainly a masculine name.
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He was quoting Myrhh, Father :smiley:

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