Saints who have victories of war attributed to them


#1

It didn’t dawn on me till today, when i was watching an episode of the simpsons, that when saints like Joan of Arc are said to have been given the direct command/blessing from God to conquer/attack another country it is very problematic.

I know what people are gong to say, yes it is biblical but it does not seem right. For example, the victor obviously writes history and their ‘commands/directives’ from God are attributed to their respective saint… but if the outcome had been the other way around it would be the same result just vice versa and different saints. I find it hard to believe God used Joan of Ark to help the french, especially when secular historians will point to numerous reasons for why it happened, aside from God supposedly telling her to kill many to advance her country at the expense of others.


#2

Wrong answer - Joan of Arc was defending and restoring her own native country, France, because large parts of it had been conquered by the foreign English! The French were absolutely not the aggressors in that war, any more than the Maccabees who fought against the Assyrian invaders of Israel.

Joan didn’t advance France at the expense of anyone, she rid it of the English invaders and restored it to what it had been before they attacked and conquered.


#3

HAHA! as if the writers of the Simpsons have any right to point fingers. :rotfl: :rolleyes:

Try looking up the just war doctrine in the CCC, that should help a lot.


#4

This says all about the US:
The Simpsons as teachers on Church doctrine.:smiley:


#5

I read once about an attack by a huge army that was thwarted by the much smaller number of local people who were marching and praying the rosary. I can’t remember any more details, but if anyone knows this, can they post it here?


#6

Not sure of any Rosary stories, but I do remember Pope St Leo the Great singlehandedly persuading Attila the Hun not to invade Rome, and St Clare and her nuns holding off a bunch of invading soldiers simply by walking round the outside of their convent with the Eucharist displayed in a monstrance.

So not all saints are warmongerers :wink:


#7

It does say a lot about the Church’s relation to politics.

1st, that Joan of Arc was burned as a heretic, and was regarded that way by most of the Catholic world for many years to come.

2nd, that Joan of Arc was burned by the English who were later to become the enemies of Catholic France in the Wars of Religion.

3rd, that Joan of Arc was more venerated as a hero during and after the French Revolution, than before, as the stain of ‘heresy’ mattered little to the atheistic revolutionaries.

4th, that Joan of Arc was canonised in 1920, and that immediately afterwards the French Socialist government resumed normal diplomatic relations with the Holy See.

That’s not to say that the Church would ever canonise someone it wasn’t certain was a good example to the faithful, but simply that sometimes it takes political events in the world to convince the Church of this. Many saints are not regarded well in their own time, and only recognised for their pioneering holiness after the fact.


#8

The Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary was instituted by Pope Gregory XIII in 1573 to commemorate the defeat of the Ottoman Turk in the great naval battle at Lepanto. A rosary procession was held on that day in St. Peter’s Square for the allied European fleet, and victory was attributed to Our Lady of the Rosary.


#9

Totally wrong - Under Pope Callixtus III a ‘rehabilitation’ hearing to restore her reputation was held and found that she had been unjustly executed - this was within 25 years of her death. In the sixteenth century she was adopted as patroness of the multinational Catholic League - in other words de facto recognised as a saint and worthy Christian rolemodel, not a heretic.


#10

I don’t think it is at all inconsistent.

The Church has never tought pacifism (i.e. all use of violence is wrong). Violence is a Just War, or in self-defence has always been permitted, and may even be required.

There are many warrior Saints. St. Henry, St. Louis, St. Jean D’Arc, St. John of Capistrano, St. Ladislas of Hungary to name a few.

Projecting pacificism on Christianity is a modern phenomenon.

God Bless


#11

But Joan of Arc lost. That’s what’s so cool about her. Yes, her side eventually won, but she herself met a rather sorry end.

As I understand Catholic teaching, a war of self-defence is legitimate. Joan was fighting to end a war of aggression by the Lancastrian dynasty which had resulted in years of devastation for the civilian population. She was fighting to protect French people from vicious raiders who killed, raped, and plundered. In my book this meets the criterion for a just war.

Edwin


#12

You got to be kidding me, you honestly believe God was sponsoring her side in that battle? Study history, the french did the same thing earlier ot the english… england and france were the battling forces of the high middle ages and the early modern period. To say God is on one persons side because of a occupation is crazy. God takes sides then but has nothign to say about the attrocities taking place now and in the last century? Come on its a commonplace event of the old superstituous worldview attributing everything to powers outside of themselevs.

And pacficism is not a new modern day thing at all… there has been many debates throughout all ages in the church about the use of violence and even was one reason for the radicall reformation!


#13

I find it extremly hard to venerate a saint in such circumstances. Even these wholel praying the rosary events seem strange. THe rosary was prayed profusely during the WW’s and during other wars yet having direct happened… i am weary when all these ‘miracles’ are attributed to events left right and centre, it makes them very arbitrary


#14

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