Salvation and former V.P. Pat Madrid


#1

There has been considerable deabte over the last month in a half about “Outside the Church there is no Salvation” and Protestanism. My point has always been that Protestants have an absolute obligation to enter the Church or risk going to hell. Yes, the invincibly ignorant Protestant who seeks to follow God to the best of his ability can be saved. Since we dont know who is invicibly ignorant we should seek to convert all Protestants. The council of Trent condemned Protestanism as a heresy and we should recognize it as such. The catechism uses “nicer” language, but still does not exclude Protestants’ obligation of entering the Catholic Church. What does this have to do with Pat Madrid and catholic Answers?? In the 90’s Pat, when he was V.P. of Catholic Answers, debated James White on Sola Scriptura. At the end of the debate Pat stated to the Protestants in the audience, “…MANY OF YOU RUN THE RISK OF GOING TO HELL FOR NOT ENTERING THE CATHOLIC CHRUCH…” If he was wrong then I am quite sure that Karl Keating, James Akin, an even Pat himself would have issued a correction or retraction. NOne was given because his statement was correct and consistent with Church teaching. I hope catholics remember that protestants need to be converted and apologetics is not just an intellectual exercise.


#2

marine << My point has always been that Protestants have an absolute obligation to enter the Church or risk going to hell. >>

Yes, and Catholics have an absolute obligation to continue in their faith or risk going to hell. We all risk going to hell. :o Now we don’t want to browbeat or pick out Protestants in general. Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, Scientologists, spiritual seekers of all kinds, all risk going to hell. Okay, we got that straight. :thumbsup:

marine << I hope catholics remember that protestants need to be converted and apologetics is not just an intellectual exercise. >>

We all need to be converted, and re-converted, and re-re-converted. Every day. BTW, we are not in the army here no need to shout. :smiley: Just kidding, good job. SOLDIER!

Phil P


#3

True!! We all risk going to hell, but for differnet reasons. The Catholic risks going to hell because of sins of the flesh. The Catholic, by definition, believe all of God’s truth. Non Catholic risks going to hell not only for sins of the flesh, but also for the more serious sins of the spirit. I am not trying to singal out protestants, but there seems to be a more willingness to let them “slide” because they believe in Christ.


#4

marineboy,

You are correct, yet we must also remember that a great many (if not most) Protestants are truly invincibly ignorant. That is true because most Protestant Christians have been raised in the faith of their parents and have received decades of false teaching pumped into their minds from the early years of their childhood. For many Protestants, it would be fully inconceivable to even consider the Catholic faith, they have been completely brainwashed into believing many false things about the Catholic Church that makes it very hard for them to convert.

It is true and accurate to say that Prostestants should remain a focus of evangelistic efforts…yet, we must not forget the 60-70% of our own so-called Catholics who do not follow faith, and we must not forget the Muslims, or Jews, or anyone else…for the Catechism says we must evangelize “all men.”


#5

Yes, remember that Protestant indoctrination (I don’t mean brainwashing, just standard teaching) can make a person invincibly ignorant even in the midst of a thousand Catholic apologists. It is perfectly conceivable that a person who believes themselves to be honestly seeking the truth may not consider looking for the truth in the Catholic Church.


#6

I think the thing with some Protestants that makes them special, is that they seek so agressively to convert Catholics, and tell us how we are not even Christian, and some of them meet in their little congresses or assemblies once a year ane make a project plan of x mount of people form each faith dissimilar to them that they need to convert to meet their annual goal for the upcoming year, that it is easier to think of them as targets. Also they give out information based on inaccurate interpretations fo the abridged Bible; “say you’re saved and all is well,” to so many people.I am open to talking to people who ask quetions, or engage in conversations with people who seem to be seeking, or those who attack me, but most of my evangelization efforts adhere to Francis Assisi’s model…talking occasionally but trying to show always.


#7

[quote=PhilVaz]marine << My point has always been that Protestants have an absolute obligation to enter the Church or risk going to hell. >>

Yes, and Catholics have an absolute obligation to continue in their faith or risk going to hell. We all risk going to hell. :o Now we don’t want to browbeat or pick out Protestants in general. Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, Scientologists, spiritual seekers of all kinds, all risk going to hell. Okay, we got that straight. :thumbsup:

marine << I hope catholics remember that protestants need to be converted and apologetics is not just an intellectual exercise. >>

We all need to be converted, and re-converted, and re-re-converted. Every day. BTW, we are not in the army here no need to shout. :smiley: Just kidding, good job. SOLDIER!

Phil P
[/quote]

Phil baby!

In all these years, you have not lost your touch! :slight_smile:

Great answer, BTW!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

*Give me that REAL old time religion!
The CATHOLIC CHURCH, 2,000 years of history! *


#8

The doctrine of Invincible Ignorance does not apply to Protestants. They are already Christians, but they do not have the fullness of Truth.

The doctrine of Invincible Ignorance applies to those who have not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel message through no fault of their own.

MaggieOH


#9

well to say that most Protestants are invincibly ignorant is just plain wrong–or at least may be wrong or maybe correct. WE DONT KNOW!!! remember the person must be invincibly ignorant. He can be ignorant, but if he closes his heart off to the truth then he is still culpibable. Of course, as I said, we dont know who is and who is not invincibly ignorant. Protestestants are ignorant, (at least most probablyare), but are they invincibly ignorant, who knows? You can hold the opinion that most are invincibly ignorant. You can also hold that most are not, but we really dont know. WE should act as if none are invincibly ignorant and seek to convert each and everyone of them form Protestanism.


#10

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