Salvation for non-Catholics prior to Vatican ll?


#42

That’s something only God can answer, but we should strive to get everyone baptized into Christ’s Church.


#43

Lack of spacing aside, that doesn’t mean every single person who isn’t baptized gets into heaven. Key word is seeks the truth and does the will of God. Unbaptized people getting into heaven is assumed as an exception, not the rule.

By your logic, what’s the point of the church? Why should we seek to evangelize and gain converts to Christianity if everyone is fine where they’re at and can get into heaven without baptism or hearing the gospel?


#44

Baptism of Desire is a theological opinion. It has never at any point in history been a teaching of the Catholic Church (including today). Prior to Vatican II, even the idea of BoD was never considered a worthy theological opinion. There is nothing wrong with hoping that God will save someone outside the Church, but to assume it happens as an every day sort of thing? That is misleading and runs contrary to Divine Revelation and Sacred Tradition.


#45

And there we must agree to disagree my friend.
We have no reason to believe any fewer sincere truth seekers amongst the non baptised will enter their reward than the same for the baptised.
I am a glass half full person who sees the HS at work strongly amonst the Gentiles in ways it is not ours to fathom. I am not jealous in their regard as might be an elder brother who sees the great compassion his father might show for a wayward younger brother.
I understand not all Catholics are secure or generous of heart in this regard. As I am married to a Chinese Buddhist who is clearly more virtuous and loving of others than myself thats rather obvious to me. I try not to be xenophobic either materially or spiritually.


#46

So why then are we even supposed to bother trying to evangelize and proselytize to people? What’s the point of seeking converts and calling people to the church if it’s not necessary?


#48

Indeed, as Pope Francis has stated we are not to prosyletise but evangelise. When you live in a culture where Christians nor Europeans are not the majority you will come to understand what evangelisation really means.


#49

I’d like to see a citation on that from Pope Francis.

But again, I ask. What is the point in people converting to the church if they don’t need to to get to heaven? Why have martyrs died for their faith if they didn’t need to?

What is your answer to these converts?


#50

You are on the wrong thread.


#51

I think many times people miss the “can be saved” part of Church teaching. That means it is possible for God in His goodness and mercy to save someone who is not a baptized Catholic but salvation is found only in the Catholic church. That is why God gave us the Church. “Can be saved” does not mean they are “saved” or have found salvation somewhere other than the Catholic church. It is best not to assume non-Catholics are “saved” of will be saved. It is our job to evangelize, pray and sacrifice for them and bring people into the Catholic church.


#52

I cannot imagine you see eye to eye with our beloved Pope Francis on most matters so I suspect it would make no difference my friend :slightly_smiling_face:.


#53

So do you not have one? Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevant. He’s the pope, I submit to his authority.


#54

May I ask how old you are?
Have you extensively travelled overseas at all and lived in other non Christian cultures?


#55

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Excuse me if I imitate Pope Francis in his response to Card Burke on this one…and for the same reasons.


#56

No I have not traveled to non Christian cultures but I have met non Christians. But whether or not I have traveled to other countries, or no matter my age, that does not change Church teaching.


#57

What’s that have to do with the price of tea in China? Having lived in other cultures holds no bearing on whether or Christianity, as a revelation of Gods plan to man, is the preeminent religion and it should be the goal of all believers to share this revelation and win hearts and souls to Christ’s church. If this isn’t the goal, why did the apostles die to spread the gospel to non Christian cultures?


#58

What you write concerning the Church prior to Vatican II and Baptism of Desire is quite incorrect.

In any event, The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

[1258] The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

[1259] For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

[1260] “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


#59

As was somewhat apparent from your world view.
The issue is perhaps not Church teaching but your personal understanding of it. We are all limited or expanded in our interpretations/assumptions by our characteristic life experiences. The “Quiet American”, written many years ago demonstrates this characteristic national lacuna in an otherwise generous nation.
I warmly recommend it as a classic read for understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the American psyche.


#60

I am not really sure how you know my world view, or my life experiences to know what my world view is. Whether or not I traveled has no bearing on Church teaching.


#61

It is you who say it.


#62

As others note you are badly mistaken on this one.
It is now clearly a teaching promoted in the Universal Catechism of 1985.


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