Salvation for the Dead outside any Church

It is common practice for the dead in purgatory to obtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of their sins (C.C.C., X. Indulgences). This practice seems to come from 2 Maccabees 12:38-46. These indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints (the faithful).

The Churches fail to teach the complete redemptive work of Christ. The Gospel message of salvation is to be preached to all men of all times and in all places. Although, I am not a Universalist, my views may somewhat align with their way of thinking. I believe that we must learn to search scripture with the loving heart of Christ.

Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades. And the unfaithful dead in hell can be saved as well.

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Philippians 2:10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

John 5:25. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Our good works can be offered up to Christ as atonement for the sins of the unfaithful dead in hell. Atonement is necessary because they did not have faith in the Messiah. This completes the gospel work of salvation. To say otherwise, is to cut short the redemptive work of Christ.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Some of the dead today are commonly referred to as “shadow people”. I have seen thousands of these spirits. And, I have received divine guidance in regards to them.

I urge those who have the dead in their lives or loved ones in hell to please listen.

Zechariah 9:11. As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.

It is all the same for God to free prisoners in this world from their captives as it is for Christ to free prisoners from their captives in the spirit world.

There are various shades of darkness and white or light in the spirit world. In which two kingdoms exist…heaven and hell. The darker spirits are malevolent and are in hell. Here, you can find “shadow people” in scripture.

Psalm 23:4. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

Death surrounds us and we can see the shadows of the dead.

Shadow people are generally malevolent spirits of the dead. They are the lost human souls of the netherworld. It is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. The soul is in ruins. And in need of salvation (divine restoration).

1 Peter 4:6. For this reason the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in spirit.

And, it is by the power of God that salvation is made for us and the dead.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Comment: Why is “purgatory” necessary, if salvation is by the power of God? Christ can save the dead in a blink of an eye. Although, Catholic myself, I cast my doubts on purgatory.

There is only one way to help these spirits. And that is by making atonement for their sins. In this way, their souls are restored by the divine power of Christ and they can be good spirits with their friends and family in heaven. Atonement is made by offering up our good works to the one and only risen King. One must be in good standing with God and have the door closed to these spirits before atonement will be accepted. This should be done as soon as possible.

Leviticus 19:31. Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

Mediums and familiar spirits involve consulting the spirits of the dead. All contact with these or other spirits was strictly forbidden in Israel. It demonstrated lack of faith in and rebellion against God.

Remember, atonement can also be made for our friends and loved ones in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

I find that offering up atonement to Christ for the sins of the unfaithful dead, to be of the utmost importance. It is the only way that Christ’s Redemptive work of salvation is complete.

In conclusion, this, my friends, is the most loving thing you can do for these poor, lost souls. And, may God bless you for such an undertaking.

In spite of what you say, you CANNOT make atonement for the souls in Hell. They are there to stay. The problem is that you are interpreting scripture for yourself outside of authoritative teaching and are therefore posting here what is against Catholic Church teaching. That is one of the dangers of self interpretation. You are also taking things out of context…

For example 1 Pet 4:6. This scripture has to do with Christ descending to Hell after his death to preach the Good News to those of the old testament who were waiting for the Messiah. Please check CCC: 631-637. He didn’t go there to deliver the damned but to deliver the just souls who died before him. This is NOT supportive of your contention.

I am short of time to reply to all of this but I am sure that others here will have more to add.

True.

Jesus Christ was the atonement for ALL sin. We, as humans, can’t make atonement for any sin. And we can call on Jesus’ atonement to pay the price for our sins when we believe and have faith in Him.

  1. There are two time periods described in the scriptures. The first period is before the Resurrection of Our Lord and the second period is after. Only the just were freed from Sheol (Hades).

  2. You ask “Why is “purgatory” necessary, if salvation is by the power of God?”
    "…before death a soul can cleanse itself by freely choosing to suffer for its sins, and can gain merit for this suffering, a soul in purgatory can not so choose and gains no merit for the suffering and no increase in glory. Rather, it is cleansed according to the demands of Divine Justice." – The Doctrine of Purgatory by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
    therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Catechism of the Catholic Church
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.628

I am well aware that,

1 Peter 4:6. For this reason the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in spirit.

refers to Jesus descending into hell preaching the good news to and delivering the faithful before Christ.

But, I am also aware that atonement can be made for the.dead.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

And, no where in Maccabees does it say that atonement is limited to the faithful dead.

The Catholic Church is not infallible and subject to error.

Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades,

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

and to say that the keys are only for the faithful dead, such as those in purgatory, you would be selling Christ’s redemptive work of salvation short. Christ has not failed to open the gates of heaven and hell for the faithful. Nor has He failed to provide an opening for the unfaithful dead who can be saved by offering up good works to Christ for the atonement of their sins.

Jesus has taught us to love and pray for they enemy.

Mathew 5:44. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

And, He is not a hypocrite.

Jesus made atonement for the faithful dead in hell before His Passion. And atonement was made for the dead in hell in the book of Maccabees.

The Catholic Church practices receiving indulgences from God for the atonement of the sins of those in purgatory.

The Catholic Church is not infallible and subject to error.

This is incorrect. The Catholic Church IS infallible in matters of faith and morals and is NOT subject to error in these matters.

When we talk about souls in Purgatory and Indulgences we are NOT talking about unrepentant dead or souls in Hell. Those are two entirely different things.

I am quite sure that you could find numbers of other threads on these same topics you’ve brought up with full discussions, scripture citations etc. etc. showing where your statements are incorrect if you would take the time to look. This is ground we’ve been through here on CAF many, many times.

Again I encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church’s interpretation of the Bible is done by man and IS subject to error. The Church is fallible…just look at it’s history…it is full of errors. The day that members cannot question the Church is the day it’s members lose their freedom and submit to the authority of man.

“Purgatory” is hell. The soul has not been saved. Indulgences is a treasury of good works left by the saints and held by God. So, good works are offered up to the dead in hell. Only, the Church reserves these indulgences for the faithful. The Catholic Church falls short of the glory and love of Christ.

I have read the book of Catechism. And that’s where I spotted the Church’s error. It allows no atonement for the unfaithful dead in hell. Even when, Christ will accept it. Good works can be offered up to Christ for the sins of the dead in hell who had no faith in their lifetimes. You can pound my head in with your Catholic theology. It will do no good. I know the truth. And it comes from and is of Christ.

Ah yes, another person who does not understand the difference between ‘infallibility’ and ‘impeccability’ and who (supposedly Catholic) now breathlessly realizes, all because he ‘read the book’ and ‘thinks for himself’ that 2000 years of Catholic thinking is just wrong.

So tell me my friend, where exactly did the Church go off the rails on this teaching? IOW, can you show me where there is authentic Catholic teaching that supports your view from the time of the apostles, has been systematically practiced until now, and was ‘originally’ done by Catholics but then ‘changed’ to something different?

Because you see, I’m not seeing where the apostles believed as you do. I do not see where the 1st century, 5th century, 10th century, 15th century Churches, either Western (Latin) or Eastern (Orthodox) believed as you do. So it looks as if for some 1500 years Christians, Western and Eastern, believed what is now taught by the Catholic (and Orthodox) Churches, and only relatively recently have some few come along with ‘your’ interpretation.

How can that be?

How is it that you claim ‘fallible men’ are in Christ’s church and changed teachings, but somehow you, one person, somehow got it right?

If they were fallible, why can’t you be?

First of all, not unlike myself, the Church is not perfect. To idolize the Church as being infallible without error is kin to worshiping it.

In the old testament, animal sacrifices were offered up to God for the atonement of sin. Today, good works are still offered up to Christ for the remission of sin for those in purgatory.

The Church practice of receiving good works (indulgences) from God for the atonement of the dead in purgatory comes from,

2 Maccabees 12:38-46.38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place.
39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Judas offered up atonement for the sin of the faithful dead. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that atonement cannot be offered up for the unfaithful dead. If atonement for the dead in hell was once done, it still can be done. God love goes unchanging. But, how can the dead, who refused God’s loving grace in their lifetimes be saved? By offering up good works to Christ as atonement for their sins. And may God bless the loving heart that pursues such a noble and excellent thing.

I have received divine guidance in regards the salvation of the unfaithful dead in hell. The source of my information is Christ Himself. It is in scripture with the correct interpretation as well.

Well your last paragraph kind of says it all. . .in a nutshell, one might say.

The simple fact remains…we have always been able to make atonement for sins…and we still can. It is the unfaithful dead that needs such atonement. Here, Christ gives us the opportunity to help the fallen. All people have hope in Christ.

Ah well… if you truly want to believe that your individual, personal revelation is better than that of the Church there is not much more to be said. You wouldn’t be the first person to have been in error.

However, putting our faith in the opinions of one sinful human being is a bit like going out on a very long small limb and then cutting it off. Especially when we can read that you are very much opposed to the Church. We are all better off with the infallibility of the Church’s teaching on faith and morals which Christ himself promised to stay with until the end of time.

Atonement has been being made for sins ever since the beginning of time. And is still being done through the Church for the dead in purgatory. Is it so hard to believe that the love of Christ has allowed us to offer up atonement for those who died without faith? If you fail to see this, than you fail to see the full love of Christ.

I am not in error. And I am not opposed to the Church. I believe it to be the best of all the Churches. It is not perfect. For example, over 100 years ago the Church claimed that mental illnesses like schizophrenia was punishment from God. And today, they have retracted that statement. So much for your “perfect” Church.

Hi notforgotten

Although I agree with you on various points! For example the CC not being infallible and making mistakes.

But for the beings in Hell not having God’s mercy? Doesn’t it make sense for them not being in Hell in the first place because of God’s mercy?

Maybe I missed some of your posts? Or did not understand them?

Regards

Sorry, your statement is in error. The sanctity of the church is not fallible. It is infallible, but it is members are fallible. Look at Peter? So should we disregard the Petrine Epistles?
Purgatory is NOT Hell.

And your interpretation is infallible? So what you are saying is Jesus left a church with no guidance of the Holy Spirit and we are all wandering aimlessly hoping we get “it” right? Really?

It should be a priority to an individual to have faith in their lifetimes and not be condemned to hell.

Animal sacrifices for the atonement of sin can be seen throughout the old testament. In Maccabees, money given to the Church can be seen as good works offered up to God for the atonement of the dead, so that they can be released from their sins. Christ’s atonement for sins do not cover the unfaithful dead. But we as Christians, and as part of God’s covenant can offer up atonement for the sins of the unfaithful dead. And Jesus, holding the keys to death and Hades can release the prisoners there and restore their souls with His divine powers so that they can be in heaven with God, the angels, family and friends.

Quite frankly, I doubt that “purgatory” even exists. It is by the power of God that we are saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;…

When we die, it is by the divine power of Christ that the soul is salvaged. Christ does this in a blink of an eye. It is Christ whom purifies the soul. There is no need for purgatory as a purifying fire or as an intermittent punishment. Although, Catholic myself, and I do believe that it is the best Church of them all, I cast my doubts on purgatory.

And if purgatory did exist, it would be hell. Those sent to purgatory have not been saved and are considered the dead. The dead are not in heaven. And, I fail to see a place or state or condition in between heaven and hell.

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