Salvation Is A Gift?


#1

I’ve been having some conversations with my non-Catholic friends and we keep returning to the same argument: How is it that as a Catholic we can say we are never for sure if we will enter into heaven. It is the Catholic understanding that we can HOPE but there is no “for-sure”(Unless you’re a saint canonized by the Church, Jesus, Mary etc…). My understanding is that as a Catholic, I have been saved by the death of Jesus Christ, I am being saved every day by my faith and good works, and I can hope to be saved when I die and enter into the Kingdom. I know that Jesus’ death and our salvation through him is a GIFT. And it is a fact that any gift can be accepted or denied because God granted us Free Will. My non-Catholic friends are convinced that because they have accepted Jesus in some sort of commitment, they have no doubt that they will enter into the Kingdom, no if ands or buts. I keep trying to convey that one must live their life according to how Jesus calls us and it is in how we act and live out our faith that we will be judged accordingly. This ties in with why Catholics pray for the dead too.
*
If anyone can tell me where a section on Salvation is in the CCC or a good reference to help it explain it better, it would be much appreciated!!!*


#2

Yes, it has been covered in a number of threads, which contain scriptural back-up, and you are right in your faith and understanding.


#3

You are saved. Once and for all. End of story.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“That if you shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

Requirements for salvation…

(…and they have nothing to do with the man made ideals of adhering to sacraments)

Believing that He is your Savior and wants to save you.

Confessing that you need God in your life.

Praying to Him and asking God to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness (past, present, or future).

The only requirement is that you really mean this from your heart. You need to come to the place where you realize that you are lost without God, that you’re willing to turn from your sins, ask Him to forgive you, then ask Jesus to come into your life and take over from you.

Anything else you do is WORKS.

You are not saved by your works. You do not maintain salvation by your works.

It is a gift…NOT a reward.

It can not be taken away. Nor will it.


#4

This preacher undoubtedly believed he was saved, once and for all. All those around him undoubtedly believed he was saved, once and for all. But look at what he’s doing now, actively trying to get Christians to reject their faith. Is he “still” saved? What do you say, clh1217?

It can not be taken away. Nor will it.

Nobody is saying it can be taken away. The question is, can it be rejected?


#5

I, without knowing much else…would say he has been deceived. Being alive still…He is still “working out” his salvation. Jesus said he would lose NOT ONE sheep.

If the man was a sheep, he can not become a goat. Jesus will leave the flock to look for the man. Of course Jesus knows exactly where the man is right now…and is shedding dear mercy on the man because…knowing God’s character, …I would imagine God would like to strike him down.

But, God is allowing the man to work it out. Allowing the blessings, the mercy and grace of God work through Christ as Christ calls the man back from the wilderness.

I could give the coined ‘he was never saved to begin with’…which also would be scripturally correct. Jesus will NOT lose His sheep.

Nobody is saying it can be taken away. The question is, can it be rejected?

sure, it can be rejected…resisted. But once you accept, it is a gift that can not be given back.

You have to accept the gift, …and it is a done deal after that.


#6

And there it is, proof that OSAS is useless because nobody can ever be sure of the OS part. Will this man die asking God’s forgiveness, or will he die holding his book and crying out “there is no God!”? You and every Christian will offer a different opinion on his salvation depending on which path he takes. The point is, this man and plenty of other sinners like him demonstrate that it is simply wishful thinking to claim absolute certainty that one is saved. If he can go from Christian preacher and evangelist to militant atheist, what’s to say you can’t, or I can’t?

sure, it can be rejected…resisted. But once you accept, it is a gift that can not be given back.

You have to accept the gift, …and it is a done deal after that.

But it is impossible to know for sure if you have actually accepted the gift until death.

There is no such thing as OSAS. What there may be is OSIRSITFPAS. Once saved, if really saved in the first place, always saved. If, if, if. There’s no assurance in “if”. So why claim it? Why not just live a Christian life, conform oneself to God, have faith in his promises, have hope that you will continue to run the race, and have trust in his grace and mercy.


#7

Hebrews 6:4-7

“For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” (Heb 6:4-6)

“That if you shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ " (Matt 7:21-23)

Requirements for salvation…

(…and they have nothing to do with the man made ideals of adhering to sacraments)

“Jesus answered, ‘Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit’.” (John 3:5) “baptism…saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.” (1 Peter 3:21-22)

Believing that He is your Savior and wants to save you.

Right. Good start.

Confessing that you need God in your life.

Yes.

Praying to Him and asking God to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness (past, present, or future).

Through baptism, as Peter tells us, yes.

The only requirement is that you really mean this from your heart. You need to come to the place where you realize that you are lost without God, that you’re willing to turn from your sins, ask Him to forgive you, then ask Jesus to come into your life and take over from you.

Anything else you do is WORKS.

This is a man made approach to God. It’s sincere. But man made. Scripture is very clear. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved,” we are told in Mark 16. (And in Peter and John and plenty of other places.)

You are not saved by your works.

There is nothing we can do to merit the original grace given us in baptism, no. “For by grace you have been saved, not by works lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9) However, just as someone set free from cpativity can do nothing to merit his original release, but by all accounts then needs to do all he can afterwards to demonstrate gratitude to his liberator, so man must receive the grace that he does not originally merit and then “make more” with it. (See Matt 25:14-30)

“We see that a man is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

You do not maintain salvation by your works.

Not true.

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.”

It is a gift…NOT a reward.

Indeed, faith is a gift. So is a check for $10 million. That check is utterly useless if the receiver decides to go and toss it in the river. Or to deposit and then never make use of any of the funds.

The check is pure gift, as is Christ’s sacrifice. But until we apply it in our lives through daily obedience to his word, it doesn’t mean anything.

It can not be taken away. Nor will it.

Indeed, it can.

“Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.” (Matt 21:43)

SK


#8

Scripture, when read in context, proves salvation to be a process, not a one time event. The notion of “once saved always saved” is unbiblical. There are indeed scriptures which point to being “saved”. Taken by themselves, as we see posted above, it might appear that upon being reborn we are “saved”. But wait, there’s more… Scripture goes on to tells us that we are saved, we are being saved, that we can have hopeful confidence in salvation, that those who persevere in faith will be saved, and that we should *work out *our salvation in fear and trembling. Hopeful confidence? Working out salvation? Perseverance? Why would Scripture say such things? St. Paul believed in Christ and he had professed his belief. What did he have to work out? Why did he have to persevere to the end if, after his conversion, he was saved? I think the reason can be summed up in four words: free will… mortal sin. We are free to abandon Christ through mortal sin, even if we have professed Him. Scripture clearly tells us that there is sin which is mortal, and it clearly tells that if we we do not repent and do the works we did at first He will remove our lampstand. However, the good news is, the moment we truly repent, He will forgive us.

PS. I love the parable of the sheep and the goats. I find it fascinating that in that parable, belief in Jesus is not mentioned. What is emphasized in this parable are actions and lack of actions. Of course, we know that no work or action is “good” to God unless it is done in faith. Faith is not optional. However, faith alone is not going to qualify us as a ‘sheep’.


#9

you are failing, …blisteringly so, …to understand I am NO judge of the true heart.

God is…

I am resting on the promises of God that He shall NOT LOSE HIS SHEEP.

Whether or not he was a sheep, …that is NOT for me to know.

so you failed.


#10

baptism IS NOT the vessel that saves you.

Jesus holds that only. Baptism is the result of the salvation. It is an after effect of true obedience.

Neither water baptism will wash away your sins or save you from eternal torment in Hell.

There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5).

That one baptism is found in Mark 1:8: John the Baptist said “I indeed have baptized you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” Also, Acts 1:5: “For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

After trusting Jesus with a pure heart, you receive the Holy Spirit : Ephesians 1:8: “After ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

One sign of having the Holy Spirit is telling others about Jesus (Acts 1:8).

Paul implied water baptism was not part of the “Gospel” in I Corinthians 1:17 when he declared that he was not sent by Christ to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.

Paul defined the Gospel in I Cor. 15:1-8, and did not mention water baptism.

Acts 2:38: The “for” in Acts 2:38 is the Greek word “eis,” which means “referring to.” If Paul had meant to say we are baptized to be saved, he would have used the Greek word “hina,” which means “to.” This principle also applies to Romans 6:3.

Nowhere in Acts 8:12 does it say one must be water baptized for salvation.

In Romans 6:4 & Colossians 2:12 it says we are “buried with him by baptism unto death…” A “burial” is not salvation. Colossians 2:12 correctly shows that what saves us is, “risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Acts 2:41 does not say what a Church of Christ flyer sent to me says–“They who received (Believed) the Word were added to the saved by Baptism.” That is not what the verse says. Instead, the verse declares, “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized…” It does not say that baptism was essential for salvation, but merely states that they were baptized after they believed.

The Ethiopian in Acts Chapter 8. This is obviously not an example of water baptism being essential for salvation. In verse 37 Philip said “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…” The eunuch believed. Then he was baptized. This story does not say that the water baptism was essential for his salvation.

Saul’s case in Acts Chapters 9 & 22 does not say baptism was necessary for his salvation. In Acts 22:16 Ananias told Paul to “…Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” What Ananias told Paul is not true, as the Bible sometimes uses figurative language. In this case, the Spirit of God tells us in Acts 9:17 what actually happened. Ananias put his hands on Paul so that Paul could receive his sight. Paul was then filled with the Holy Ghost. Obviously, Ananias had used figurative language in Acts 22:16.

On a related issue, the blind man in Luke 18: 35-43 was saved by faith in Jesus and there is no record he was baptized!

In Acts Chapter 10 it is recorded that Cornelious received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized. If salvation is acquired when water baptized, then the passage is saying that the Holy Spirit will enter the unsaved. Once again, it does not say that the baptism was part of the salvation process.

I Peter 3:21 says the “like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…” This means that only in some figurative sense was Noah saved by water. Furthermore, baptism is called a “figure.” The purpose of water as used in the scriptures is to serve as a symbol of the work of God (Ephesians 5:25-26).

John 3:5. Jesus’ reference to “water” in this verse refers to our birth out of our mother’s womb in water. This is illustrated in verse 6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Romans 6:1-4. Once again the “into” in this verse is “eis,” which means “in reference to.” Furthermore, the next verse calls baptism a “burial.”

Matthew 28: 19-20 does not mention anything about water. When a person sincerely trusts Jesus then they are baptized with the Holy Ghost as mentioned above.

In Mark 16:16 it says what damned them is not believing, not not being baptized.

Galatians 3:27. The previous verse (26) says “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” When the next verse says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” it is referring to the Holy Spirit Baptism mentioned above.


#11

then I guess you don’t believe in John 3:16 too much now do you?


#12

baptism…saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.” (1 Peter 3:21-22)

Jesus holds that only.

You’ve created a false dichotomy. Jesus saves through baptism (normally). Not apart from it. Just like he healed through the mud he placed on the blind man’s eyes and the pool of Siloam, not apart from it. (See John 9:1-7)

Baptism is the result of the salvation. It is an after effect of true obedience.

I would agree that baptism is an “after effect of obedience”. I have to disagree that it is completely incidental to salvation because the word of God is so clear.

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)

To suggest that baptism is the “result of salvation” is quite silly and is the same thing as suggesting that the “sinner’s prayer” is a “result” of salvation, rather than it’s “cause”.

Neither water baptism will wash away your sins or save you from eternal torment in Hell.

Sorry, but it’s in plain English in the Scriptures. "Baptism saves you now." (1 Peter 3:21) You can’t get any more unequivocal than that.

(Cont.)


#13

As for the rest…

There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5).

That one baptism is found in Mark 1:8: John the Baptist said “I indeed have baptized you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” Also, Acts 1:5: “For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

After trusting Jesus with a pure heart, you receive the Holy Spirit : Ephesians 1:8: “After ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

One sign of having the Holy Spirit is telling others about Jesus (Acts 1:8).

Paul implied water baptism was not part of the “Gospel” in I Corinthians 1:17 when he declared that he was not sent by Christ to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.

Paul defined the Gospel in I Cor. 15:1-8, and did not mention water baptism.

Acts 2:38: The “for” in Acts 2:38 is the Greek word “eis,” which means “referring to.” If Paul had meant to say we are baptized to be saved, he would have used the Greek word “hina,” which means “to.” This principle also applies to Romans 6:3.

Nowhere in Acts 8:12 does it say one must be water baptized for salvation.

In Romans 6:4 & Colossians 2:12 it says we are “buried with him by baptism unto death…” A “burial” is not salvation. Colossians 2:12 correctly shows that what saves us is, “risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Acts 2:41 does not say what a Church of Christ flyer sent to me says–“They who received (Believed) the Word were added to the saved by Baptism.” That is not what the verse says. Instead, the verse declares, “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized…” It does not say that baptism was essential for salvation, but merely states that they were baptized after they believed.

The Ethiopian in Acts Chapter 8. This is obviously not an example of water baptism being essential for salvation. In verse 37 Philip said “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest…” The eunuch believed. Then he was baptized. This story does not say that the water baptism was essential for his salvation.

Saul’s case in Acts Chapters 9 & 22 does not say baptism was necessary for his salvation… Paul was then filled with the Holy Ghost. Obviously, Ananias had used figurative language in Acts 22:16.

On a related issue, the blind man in Luke 18: 35-43 was saved by faith in Jesus and there is no record he was baptized!

In Acts Chapter 10 it is recorded that Cornelious received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized. If salvation is acquired when water baptized, then the passage is saying that the Holy Spirit will enter the unsaved. Once again, it does not say that the baptism was part of the salvation process.

You are simply confusing a handful of different issues, including baptism, confirmation, and the pre-sacramental baptism of John. You treat them all as if all these verses refer to the same thing, which they don’t.

But when man sets aside God’s word in favor of his own tradition, this misperception is a common and natural side effect.

I Peter 3:21 says the “like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…” This means that only in some figurative sense was Noah saved by water. Furthermore, baptism is called a “figure.” The purpose of water as used in the scriptures is to serve as a symbol of the work of God (Ephesians 5:25-26).

Those are some outstanding verbal gymanstics you’ve just performed. :wink: I’m truly impressed. I’m also hoping that at some point you’ll simply alow God’s word to say what it says and not filter it through the pentecostal tradition any more.

Matthew 28: 19-20 does not mention anything about water. When a person sincerely trusts Jesus then they are baptized with the Holy Ghost as mentioned above.

In Mark 16:16 it says what damned them is not believing, not not being baptized.

To address these two together, obviously one thing must come before the other. If one truly believes, then they will be baptized. If they don’t believe then they won’t be baptized to begin with. Thus, no need to add baptism to Matt 28:19-20 or to the second half of Mark 16:16. It goes, in both instances, without saying.

Galatians 3:27. The previous verse (26) says “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” When the next verse says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” it is referring to the Holy Spirit Baptism mentioned above.

Yes! It is! Which comes from the water (water, water, not umbilical fluid) that “SAVES…YOU…NOW…” (1 Pet 3:21)

Peace and understanding be with you,

SK


#14

nice snipet…

but a snipet, a cherry pick, a choice of what you want doesn’t reflect the entire message that God is wanting you to understand.

You are merely clinging on to what YOU want to understand, or that you are holding onto for what you have been taught.

***Max Lucado: ***

*Indeed, baptism is a vow, a sacred vow of the believer to follow Christ. Just as a wedding celebrates the fusion of two hearts, baptism celebrates the union of sinner with Savior. We “became part of Christ when we were baptized” (Romans 6:3) *

Are we married to Christ prematurely? T

hen can you be saved without being united with christ? Is the wedding in effect BY FAITH ONLY. Doesn’t the ceremony and the certificate as plege have to be obeyed BEFORE one is legally married? The wedding ceremony CELEBRATES nothing: it is the civil MEANS to having the protection and approval of the civil state.

Therefore, according to the laws of the land a wedding DOES NOT celebrate the fusion of two bodies and lives. Rather, only those who have obeyed THAT FORM of law are considered married and able to enjoy the privileges

Look again at Romans 6:3 and see whether you see a vow like a wedding:

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,

[that just as (meaning type) Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father]

even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6: 4

Romans 6:3 does not speak of a WEDDING CEREMONY. Rather, it speaks of being stuck or empaled on a cross like a butterfly with a pin.

Before you can FUSE with Christ you have to let Him DIVORCE you from the “old man.”

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Ro.6:6

Crucified is the Greek:

Sustauroo (g4957) soos-tow-ro’-o; from 4862 and 4717; to impale in company with (lit. or fig.): - crucify with.

Faith only does no cause you to TRUST your own ALREADY-spiritual life by placing your body on the cross with Him trusting that you will be resurrected.


#15

Did I fail (blisteringly so - cute touch)? Funny, since you admitted the very point I was making. You said “Whether or not he was a sheep, …that is NOT for me to know.” And that is exactly my point. OSAS is meaningless if the OS part “is NOT for me to know.” Not only do you NOT know this man is OS, but he did NOT know either. It is impossible to know with certainty if one is OS during our lifetime.


#16

NO, again you don’t get it.

OSAS is for the person.

Not for anyone to wield around for every one else.

God makes the promise…

I don’t know if someone else is partaking of the promise He has…

they may say it. they may appear to be taking part…I don’t know their heart.

I know I am .

God promised me heaven, but that is not my goal…

I am saved, …God’s gifts and His callings are never wasted, forgotten…and they are irrevocable.

End of it.

I am certain, about ME.

This is MY blessed assurance.

I can’t have that in anyone else…

so, you missed it again.


#17

Are you trying to claim that the author I cited, the former preacher and minister turned militant atheist, never believed he was saved? He says he believed he was saved. Are you claiming that he was lying? Or that he was deceived?

And if he was deceived, why can’t you be deceived? Is your OS assurance somehow more perfect than his OS assurance was?

And BTW, I’ve seen a number of your posts now, and you are coming across as a person with a bit of an attitude towards Catholicism and people who don’t believe the way you believe. You might reconsider your forum persona before you get a reputation. Of course it all depends on why you are here in the first place.


#18

I believe in all scripture, in context. But it would seem you have added a meaning to it that is not there. Read it carefully:

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, **may not perish, but may **have life everlasting.

It does not say that whosoever believes in Him WILL not perish, but rather MAY not perish. Also, where in this scripture does it indicate that a one time profession of faith saves you?

I believe in John 3:16; I also believe in Mt. 7:21, Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13, Rom 11:22, Phil 2:12, 1 Cor 10:11-12, 2 Tim 2:11-13, Heb 6:4-6 just to name a few. Those passages cannot be reconciled to “once saved always saved”.

Revelation reveals to us that the Ephesians had a lampstand (symbolizing the Holy Spirit). Jesus warned them that if they did not repent and do the works they had done at first, He would remove their lampstand. They had it and were warned that it could be removed if they did not repent. That doesn’t sound like the doctrine of once saved always saved.

By the way, to give continued snide and sarcastic remarks toward fellow Christians is, in fact, very un-Christian. It appears that I am not the only one who has noticed this…


#19

I am not claiming anything.

That is the point. I can not speak for him.

I can tell you what I think…

I think himself, and people like him are in bondage…was saved…but have caved to the oppression of the enemy.

did I say “posession”???

no… OPRESSION. If you are filled with the HS, you are SEALED and there is no way for the enemy to penetrate. But, our sinful flesh can be catered to…appeased, …caved in upon.

This is what I am saying…not God. He will and does have the final say.

And if he was deceived, why can’t you be deceived? Is your OS assurance somehow more perfect than his OS assurance was?

I can. He can. You can…His OS assurance is not a “was”…it still IS.

I believe God is allowing Him to work this out…why? Because that is what God does…

And BTW, I’ve seen a number of your posts now, and you are coming across as a person with a bit of an attitude towards Catholicism and people who don’t believe the way you believe. You might reconsider your forum persona before you get a reputation. Of course it all depends on why you are here in the first place.

I care about truth. I don’t care about reputation.

I think you are decieved and are living a lie that Catholicism offers.

Not by your own fault, …but by the flesh caving to the enemies lies.

God is allowing YOU to work it out as well.

Just as He allows me to work my salvation out.

He never takes it away…it is as secure now as it was when I was first saved…I just have a better relationship with Him, …and a passion for the lost, …or the saved who are walking around in the wilderness.


#20

“may” I ask what translation you are using?

The NIV is this

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him **shall not **perish but have eternal life.

the KJV is this:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him **should not **perish, but have everlasting life.

the NAS:
in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

New Life Version:

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. Whoever puts his trust in God’s Son will no**t be lost but will have life that lasts forever. **

I believe in John 3:16; I also believe in Mt. 7:21, Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13, Rom 11:22, Phil 2:12, 1 Cor 10:11-12, 2 Tim 2:11-13, Heb 6:4-6 just to name a few. Those passages cannot be reconciled to “once saved always saved”.

sure they do. I am sorry you do not have an ear to hear. I am sorry that you do not have the assurance that God promises…you can not take the one or two sentences OUT OF THE entire passage and expect to just toss out the entire message simply to justify your means.

Revelation reveals to us that the Ephesians had a lampstand (symbolizing the Holy Spirit). Jesus warned them that if they did not repent and do the works they had done at first, He would remove their lampstand. They had it and were warned that it could be removed if they did not repent. That doesn’t sound like the doctrine of once saved always saved.

does “I will never leave you, nor forsake you”…mean anything to you?

By the way, to give continued snide and sarcastic remarks toward fellow Christians is, in fact, very un-Christian. It appears that I am not the only one who has noticed this…

hmmm, could it be conviction of truth piercing the soul?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.