Salvation lost


#1

What passages show a believer or follower of christ losing his salvation. What specific unrepentant sin can cause us to lose salvation?


#2

Sins against the HOLY SPIRIT will cause the loss of salvation, which is defined as the absolute rejection of GOD, intentional and unrepentant e.g. during WWII my father and his company came upon a terribly wounded american soldier and a priest who was attempting to baptize him as death was certain. The man told the priest, “get away from me, I didn’t need you while I was living, I don’t need you while I am dieing” - absolute, intentional and unrepentant rejection of GOD’s mercy.


#3

From Matthew chapter 13:

[1] That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea.
[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[9] He who has ears, let him hear.”

If Jesus believed in once saved always saved, he should have mentioned more than the two groups which correspond to never-saved (i.e., the “seeds [that] fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured”) and truly-saved (i.e., the “seeds [that] fell on good soil and brought forth grain”).

From 1 Corinthians chapter 9:

[24] Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
[25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[26] Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

If one’s salvation is assured, why must one put in serious effort to reach heaven (i.e., “run so that [one] may obtain [the prize]” which is “an imperishable [wreath]”) and work on one’s own sanctification to avoid being lost (i.e., “not run aimlessly” and “box as one beating the air”, but rather “pommel [one’s] body and subdue it” so as not to “be disqualified”)?

What specific unrepentant sin can cause us to lose salvation?

From Galatians chapter 6:

[7] Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
[8] For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
[9] And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

St. Paul hints here that the works of the flesh, if one persists in committing them after conversion, will send one to eternal separation from God. He mentions such works throughout his letters–fornication, drunkenness, thievery, idolatry, slander… I can find particular passages if you so wish.


#4

I wonder about this as wel… The main thing I wonder, is if a person commits “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit,” will they ever WANT to live the Christian life again? Most people say that if you’ve gone too far, you will not want or feel the need to repent. So I want to know, can you grieve the Holy Spirit to a point where He is more or less silent, then want to turn back to Him and let Him take control again? Is causing Him a lot of “grieving” quite the same as “blaspheme?” How can you tell which has happened?


#5

[quote="Trebor135, post:3, topic:282158"]
From Matthew chapter 13:

[1] That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea.
[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[9] He who has ears, let him hear."

If Jesus believed in once saved always saved, he should have mentioned more than the two groups which correspond to never-saved (i.e., the "seeds [that] fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured") and truly-saved (i.e., the "seeds [that] fell on good soil and brought forth grain").

[/quote]

The parallel passage in Luke 8 is equally clear about rejecting the word and falling away from the faith.

From 1 Corinthians chapter 9:

[24] Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
[25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[26] Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

If one's salvation is assured, why must one put in serious effort to reach heaven (i.e., "run so that [one] may obtain [the prize]" which is "an imperishable [wreath]") and work on one's own sanctification to avoid being lost (i.e., "not run aimlessly" and "box as one beating the air", but rather "pommel [one's] body and subdue it" so as not to "be disqualified")?

Hmmm..don't agree with this one. The context is Paul talking about his ministry as an apostle, not salvation.

From Galatians chapter 6:

[7] Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
[8] For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
[9] And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

St. Paul hints here that the works of the flesh, if one persists in committing them after conversion, will send one to eternal separation from God. He mentions such works throughout his letters--fornication, drunkenness, thievery, idolatry, slander... I can find particular passages if you so wish.

Hebrews 6:4ff. also describes losing justification. Galatians 5:4 as well. Note that Paul tells the Galatians that if they try to be justified by the law, they are severed from Christ. It isn't possible to be severed from Christ unless you are part of Him. Clear description of losing justification.


#6

A good friend of mine who believes in OSAS quotes frequently John 10:28-30:"28And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.

30 I and My Father are one."(KJV)

He also says to look at Romans 8:38-39 and Eph. 4:30

Personally, given my mormon background, I do believe that salvation can be lost. I feel that you can turn away, fall into sin, but like the prodigal son(Luke 15:11-32) we can come back into fellowship with God, through faith, repentance, and the Eucharist.


#7

What I always (even when I was Protestant) didn’t understand about the John 10 passage, is that it is true no one can pluck someone out of salvation, but that doesn’t mean that person can’t choose to leave! No one can take away someone else’s salvation, but that doesn’t mean a person can choose to turn away. Same goes for the Romans passage as well, here it is speaking of things other than your own actions and choices, other forces, those cannot take you away, but you can definitely choose to turn away. I believe the first half of Ephesians 4:30 speaks volumes about the meaning of the passage, you have to look at it in context.


#8

[quote="Jesusismyfriend, post:4, topic:282158"]
I wonder about this as wel.. The main thing I wonder, is if a person commits "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit," will they ever WANT to live the Christian life again? Most people say that if you've gone too far, you will not want or feel the need to repent. So I want to know, can you grieve the Holy Spirit to a point where He is more or less silent, then want to turn back to Him and let Him take control again? Is causing Him a lot of "grieving" quite the same as "blaspheme?" How can you tell which has happened?

[/quote]

God is always drawing us to him. There is nothing He will not forgive if we repent. Mortal sin is mortal, not just because it leads to death but because it can kill our desire for God. So there probably is a point when we reject him that we won't want to repent. but if you're worried *about committing a sin like that *you don't have to worry about committing a sin like that ;)

Jesus died for us, he's not looking for excuses to abandon us!


#9

Amen


#10

That’s interesting. I didn’t know turning away from God itself was a sin. I mean, I guess it makes sense.

Yes the only thing that I can think of which makes you lose your salvation is turning away from God (becoming an atheist/agnostic or switching religions).

Once you’re saved, you are saved for life as long as you keep up your salvation.

However once you sin you know that you need to repent and go to confession. Confess your sins to the priest and to God himself. Ask for forgiveness. He died to forgive you, so he will. But

DO NOT PLAY CRYING WOLF. If you repent and say your sorry to God, don’t do it over and over and over. (im talking about whatever sin you committed)

He will still forgive you but I just think that’s wrong to play cry wolf with God. So once you say you’re sorry, please try not to do it again.


#11

MY dispensationalist friend believes that once you accept Jesus even if you kill someone or die in unrepentant sin you can never lose your salvation. I tell him many passages say to persevere and endure to the end in faith and confess sin and repent of sin. It drives him nuts…


#12

He can’t stand the idea that I don’t have any assurance of salvation and I don’t know where I would go if I died right now. I tell him I have hope for salvation and I don’t despair because I endure and persevere in faith. I was saved, I’m being saved and I hope to be saved. I arm myself with the helmet that is hope for salvation…


#13

Well I read something Paul wrote that he is running the race that will save him, but he said he didn’t know if he had IT yet. So he still felt he still needed to be more conformed to Christ. He strove for perfection, but his motivation was that when he got to heaven he would be rewarded. So, I think you should believe you will and are being saved, but I am sure it is not just a one time thing.
I’ve heard of people accepting Christ and shortly after, falling away. One girl even became a self-proclaimed Satanist. It’s not that I don’t think God could still reach her. He could. But that woman would definetely feel torn in two directions if she returned to Christ. It would NOT be an easy thing.
I know you need to believe God is capable of everything, and He can save anyone. As long as they WANT to be saved. That is the main point here I guess.


#14

One of the only people I’ve heard get this in a long time! Of course one can willingly reject Jesus and Salvation, even after being “saved” the first time.


#15

The passage confirms our God-given ‘free will’. No one can go to hell against his/her own free will.


#16

That doesn’t make sense. He says ‘lest after preaching to others (ie fulfilling his duty as an Apostle) I should be disqualified’.

Why would he be disqualified from his ministry after exercising it properly and effectively? There’s no indication of being disqualified after failing to preach, or after preaching error, or doing anything amiss in regards his apostolic work.

To me he can only be referring to being disqualified from salvation.


#17

Specifically, the six sins against the Holy Spirit are:

Presumption
Despair
Resisting the known truth
Envy of another’s spiritual good
Obstinacy in sin
Final repentance

This is from a little catechism I have had for many years.

In order to understand how one loses salvation it is necessary to understand how one obtains it.

Catholicism says three things are necessary to be saved, the theological virtues, faith, hope and charity (love). The three come directly into the soul from God and by His grace. That is why they are called theological. They can not be earned. They come in order, first faith which gives rise to hope which opens the soul to charity the crowning virtue.

Humility is the mother of all virtue. It gives birth to all virtue. Everything starts with humility which is recognizing the truth about our selves. We are sinners and do evil things. Living the life of virtue culminates with charity being infused in the soul, which is God Himself coming into us. If you love you are of God.

So the question for each Catholic becomes, do I love. How do we know? Jesus and Saint John tell us in the Bible. “If a man loves me He will keep my commands”. “The love of God consists in this, that we obey His commandments”.

Our consciences tell us if we do or we don’t.

Pride the opposite of humility is the root of all sin.

For Protestants, or the OSAS especially, only one thing is necessary for salvation. Faith alone saves. Hope and love are not necessary, so you can see why they think they have and can not lose salvation. They are saved, because they believe they are saved. They believe Jesus is the savior so nothing more is necessary.

For the Catholic mind, love (obedience) is necessary. So you can see why the two do not agree.

Note that presumption and despair are contrary vices against hope. When a person loses all hope he despairs. We use the word incorrectly. O woe is me is not despair. Despair is deep deep darkness in the soul and often leads to suicide. Judas despaired. Presumption is a sin against hope that is the opposite of despair. The beginning of salvation is the fear of God. Presumption is the opposite of holy fear. This is the danger in OSAS.

The known truth is the knowledge you need to be saved. If you reject it you reject the Savior.

When we see God give spiritual goods to others, the lives of the saints, the proper response is to be happy for them. We venerate the saints for the good things God has done for them, the holiness of their lives. If we covet the spiritual good of others we put ourselves in a position to block the good God would do for us.

Obstinacy in sin, and final impenitance are related. If we are obstinate and would rather remain in our sin than receive the grace of repentance we are lost. If we die in this condition we are lost.

If we call out to God to save us He will. If we tell Him to get lost He will not force Himself upon us.

The humble confess the truth about themselves and call to God for help. The proud say they do not need God. They are anti-Christ.

The humble can become proud (lose grace) if they credit themselves for the grace God gives them. Anything we have that is good comes from the source of all goodness. We are beggars and have nothing that we have not received including life itself. If we acknowledge God as the source of grace we are grateful. If we are not grateful we are proud.

The proud can become humble (get saved). That is what conversion is. God can not reject the humble heart. It is impossible for God to not save the soul who calls to Him who is our only hope.

Most of us go back and forth between grace and sin, vice and virtue. We repent, sin, repent and sin again seventy times seven. What matters is our condition at the time of death which is why Catholics pray for a holy death, final perseverance.

The OSAS crowd see no reason to be concerned about their death, because they presume salvation is a done deal and that they will not find out their eternal fate at judgement.


#18

I would say all sin that you so not repent.

I mean look at Adam and Eve. The reason they were thrown out of paradise is not because of the sin they committed, it was because they refused to be obedient to God.

God told they do not eat from the tree, the devil so eat. They turned away from God and ate.

So they sinned. When God asked them why, Eve said the devil made me do it:D Adam said Eve made me do it, then Adam tried to turn his sin around and blame it on God. He said you gave the woman to me.

So the best passage I can see is how do we acquire eternal life.

St Peter tells us on the day of Pentecost. Repent and be baptised in the name of the Trinity.

So we must repent all sin.

But the sin that can make us lose our salvation is Mortal sin. Mortal sin is when you separate yourself from God and love the sin more then him. I guess it could be thousands of ways. No one could name it.

Like for instance say I commit adultery, I have committed mortal sin. If I do not repent and confess I am in mortal sin.

But if I repent and quit the sin and confess I am out of mortal sin.
Mortal sin is really the sin that you put above God and refuse to repent.


#19

[quote="peeteyg, post:12, topic:282158"]
He can't stand the idea that I don't have any assurance of salvation and I don't know where I would go if I died right now. I tell him I have hope for salvation and I don't despair because I endure and persevere in faith. I was saved, I'm being saved and I hope to be saved. I arm myself with the helmet that is hope for salvation...

[/quote]

I always like to say only God will judge us. If we are assured of our Salvation, how can we speak for God. The scripture says No One knows the mind of God.

I feel this way. God knows my heart, and my sins, When the day comes he also know the true Love I have for him. I cannot fool him.

He also knows I know the rules. He knows I know I must obey his commandments. I know I must try to spread the good news and hurt no one. Sometimes we do, but do not mean to do it.

So am I saved:shrug: I say ask God:D

But did Jesus die for my sins? Yep, Can my sins be forgiven if I repent? Yep.

I think the best thing I got going for me is this. Thank God I have a very merciful and Loving God. And I pray on my Day he extends me alot of Mercy!


#20

I am a little confused here. What does this mean?

I don’t think any of us have the power to stop going to hell. Its up to God on the last day of judgement. If he says we are out, we are out.

Can you explain this better. Thanks:confused:


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