Salvation outside of the Church?

In another thread I posted someone brought up that the Catholic Church once taught that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now the Church says you can get salvation through other Protestant church because they still have the sacrament of baptism. Why the change. Before people were burned for trying to translate the bible in the common language. Why does the church change it’s teaching on this? God bless!

I think that you are reading a lot into both statements.

Christ is the gate and it is He who decides who is and who isn’t inside His Church.
The Church has always talked about invincible ignorance.
The Church has never proclaimed anyone in Hell because we can not know the state of one’s soul when He dies.

To presume salvation would be a mistake.

Paul says we are to work out salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)

To presume damnation would be a mistake as well.

So to believe that things have dramatically changed would be a bit of an overstatement.

There is no change; it is not possible to change dogma. It’s just as impossible as changing a car into a truck. The church teaches a doctrine called “extra ecclesia nulla salus,” that is, outside the Church there is no salvation. This means that the Holy Church is the vehicle by which all people are saved. It is not about formal membership of individuals.
It is very important to understand that dogma cannot change, that’s what makes us Catholic. I hope my explanation of this teaching makes sense to you.

As already mentioned, there isn’t a change here. In fact, if Protestants are saved, they aren’t saved “through a Protestant church”: they’re saved through Jesus and His Church – the Catholic Church.

Before people were burned for trying to translate the bible in the common language.

Note that there were Bibles in vernacular languages prior to the Reformation – the issue during the Reformation wasn’t the vernacular, it was unauthorized versions of the Bible!

The burning incident was an error of man, first off.

As for the change (so called) . . .
BACK THEN, people were separating from the Church.
BUT TODAY, people are just born afar in these other churches, so they’re not necessarily contemned for that.
So we’re talking two different scenarios here.

I did read somewhere that there is spiritual peril in REFUSING to enter or REMAINING in the Catholic Church.
In this particular scenario, it is the ACTIVE rejecting of Christ’s True Church that is the terrible thing to do.

Did “Bob” who was born to a good Baptist family go to Hell simply for not being born Catholic? I don’t think so.
Is he damned for never having had a serious thought about joining the Catholic Church? Again, I don’t think so.
What about if MOST sound arguments are made to “Bob” that the Catholic
Church is right yet still doesn’t join? I reasonably count that as a BIG risk.

God takes ALL things into consideration, even possibly the ex-Mormon who left Mormonism with a
bad taste in his mouth for BIG religions, accepting only a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ.”
(I don’t mean to interpret the Mind of God)

“Bob” would have to be invincibly ignorant that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of the world to be saved without joining. He would have to be “outside” through no fault of his own and would have had to have been unable to join. Where the line lies between “Bob” being born in a part of the world where the Gospel has never been preached and where he lives his whole life without even hearing the name of Christ (obviously invincibly ignorant) and “Bob” knowing the Church was established by Christ but he still refuses to enter (obviously damned) is unclear, which is why it is better for us to try to get “Bob” into the Church.

In the end, we really don’t know if anyone who lived after AD 33 and wasn’t a formal member of the Church is saved. There are no canonized non-Catholic saints. But we can hope.

No you can’t get salvation “through” a Protestant ecclesial community. But Protestants may be saved. That’s not saying the same thing.

The Catholic Church is Christ’s only instrument for distribution of His graces on Earth. If Protestants are saved, and many likely will be, it is through the Catholic Church though for Protestants and even non-Christians, it will be implicit, not explicit.

Evidence for the statement in bold?

It’s not a teaching that was once taught it simply is so. There is no salvation outside the Church, and since the Catholic Church is the only real, God-made Church, there is no salvation outside it.

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: “They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”

For the fact that Protestants may be saved, the CCC:

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

That many likely will be saved, a personal opinion.

Bob being told the Church was established by Christ, and knowing that it’s true, can be two entirely different things. Therefore his refusal to enter does NOT = “obviously damned.”

Bingo. It’s not a matter of telling someone it’s true. It’s a matter of being convinced it’s true, then rejecting the Truth.

The sad fact is that if many of us here tried to convince a Protestant that the Catholic Church was the only true Church established by Christ, we’d achieve exactly the opposite. Which is why I think that many of us (myself included) should shut up when trying to evangelize. We can end up doing more harm than good, and drive folks away from the Church. :blush:

And I bet that will have a more damning effect on my soul than on the soul of the person I failed to convince.

Well put. No one but God knows what will come. As a Catholic I try to follow what the Church teaches in most things, but I also believe God can do whatever He sees fit for any individual in the end. I would never limit God’s decisions to fit what the Catholic Church has said.

The Orthodox most certainly receive grace through their churches.

I doubt if there is a damning effect on one’s soul if their heart is in the right place.

But what you have said is especially true when dealing with family members. There are so many issues between family members that I think that the best way to evangelize is to pray, love our beautiful Church, love our family and friends and let that love shine for them.

And a lot has to do with our own personalities. I have a managerial style (having raised a number of kids) so my style is not very effective. We do what we can in planting seeds and remembering that The Holy Spirit does the rest.

And above do not argue and only debate with close friends who like to debate.

I think I know what you mean. We are bound as Catholics to follow Church teachings but God is not bound by anything.

=LennyFL;11642618]In another thread I posted someone brought up that the Catholic Church once taught that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now the Church says you can get salvation through other Protestant church because they still have the sacrament of baptism. Why the change. Before people were burned for trying to translate the bible in the common language. Why does the church change it’s teaching on this? God bless!

Dear friend Lenny,

Your somewhat off base here. The Catholic Church has always taught that 'All Salvation Flows through HER" And this Doctrine is UNCHANGEABLE

**Here’s why:

There is very much biblical evidence to prove what I am sharing here.**

There is only One true God
One God can does and has always had JUST ONE set of faith beliefs
And Christ following OT precedent; of ONLY One Chosen People FOUNDED only One Church through which ALL salvation MUST flow.

From the** Catholic catechism**:

780 The [Catholic] Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men

#846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.*** Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to
remain in it."***

#847*** This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation***

God Bless you and thanks for asking,
Patrick

=HelenRose;11646789]I think I know what you mean. We are bound as Catholics to follow Church teachings but God is not bound by anything.

Ya BUT:)

The Obligation to follow ALL church teachings is not an option with God or HIS CHURCH.

PLEASE read Mt 16:15-19 and take note to whom GOD gave the Keys to heavens access

Then READ Mt 28:16-20 and see who ALONE He empowers to TEACH HIS One set of Faith beliefs

Then as Conformation of this READ PLEASE John 17:14-20.

Their is One God, with One Faith in One Church. NOWHERE in the bible does it say following God YOUR WAY is permitted, or will be tolerated.

Eph 4: 1-7
I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body [CHURCH] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord [GOD] ,** one faith [sets of beliefs],** one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ."

Acts 20:28
"Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".

Psalms 127:1 “Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.”

1st. Tim. 4:14-16 “Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shall both save thyself and them that hear thee.”

Romans 13: 2 “***Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.” ***

My dear friends BECAUSE we CAn has NEVER MEANT that we are entitled too":thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

CCC

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

?

=empantarhei;11648970]CCC

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

?

EXCELLENT:thumbsup:
NOW HERE THE REST OF THE STORY

CCC 780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

God Bless you,
Patrick

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