Salvation tips.


#1

Since there’s a ton of material out there on the Catholic view of salvation, plus several dozen threads here, I won’t ask to start a whole new discussion on Salvation 101. However, I would like to hear from those of you who’ve had success or even failure discussing this topic with fundamentalists. Or, if converts can share their stories about how they came around to the Catholic view on salvation.

I admit, I’m not as articulate on this topic as I should be–it seems like splitting hairs to me–but I’ve got a debate scheduled this Sunday with my fundamentalist girlfriend’s father. He knows his Bible in and out–where to find the verses, anyway, not necessarily what they mean–and I’d like to know what’s been effective before.

So, any help you can give me would be great!

Thanks,
Christopher


#2

I’m not good at discussing or debating with anybody but my husband. When I discuss my faith with anybody else I get this big mental block, so I’ve begun a book exchange. I’ll say, “Why don’t we exchange books. You loan me a book on your view of faith, and I’ll loan you one.” Then I let the Holy Spirit guide us. The books which I’ve heard many Catholic converts mention as influential to them are the Surprised by Truth series.

Good luck!


#3

The first thing you should do is define the terms you will be using in the discussion. You will find that Catholics & Fundamentalists define words differently and you will wind up talking past each other if your not on the same sheet of paper. For instance, the term “saved”. I’m not exactly sure how they define the term but I like how Fr. Most defines it here. It’s a helpful glossary just scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Also, he has to realize that Catholics don’t believe in scripture alone, we also look to Tradition especially in our understanding and interpretation of the Bible so that by itself is going to throw a monkey wrench into the works.

My advice to you is to defend Catholicism with a shield not a sword.


#4

[quote=Chesster]The first thing you should do is define the terms you will be using in the discussion. You will find that Catholics & Fundamentalists define words differently and you will wind up talking past each other if your not on the same sheet of paper. For instance, the term “saved”. I’m not exactly sure how they define the term but I like how Fr. Most defines it here. It’s a helpful glossary just scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Also, he has to realize that Catholics don’t believe in scripture alone, we also look to Tradition especially in our understanding and interpretation of the Bible so that by itself is going to throw a monkey wrench into the works.

My advice to you is to defend Catholicism with a shield not a sword.
[/quote]

:thumbsup: Excellent advice! Don’t be afraid to lay the ground work first, or you’ll be talking at cross-purposes and nothing will be accomplished. Any resource by Fr. Most is top notch.


#5

Born Again. There are so many ways to stumble in this area. When he starts talking about being born again, in my opinion, you do not need to get into baptism. Just say born again experience when you are talking about it. JPII tells us we need to have these adult experiences. After he understands that Catholics do not believe that just because we are baptized we are going to heaven, (ie do not follow Him in our heart as an adult), then you can discuss the regenerative nature of Baptism. But in my opinion, when talking with fundamentalists, just use their words, don’t try to teach them what it means to Catholics right away. For example: Believe on the Lord and though shalt be saved. I frequently use this verse when talking to my door to door and Fundamental Friends. Most Fundamentalists I know do not believe in once saved always saved (does he use the term backslidden Christian?) and do not mean this to imply that you do not have to follow Him after you believe. Believing however, is the start of the journey. This is because of all the misunderstanding of “earning” your way to heaven.

When it comes to Justifiction, be aware of what I think is the main difference and misunderstanding. Catholics tend to think that we choose to follow Christ with each and every good work we do. We are able to do these good works only because of the Grace of God. Fundamentalist think that good works flow naturally from a person who is saved. It is not like our free will has been taken but there is no thinking involved, the works just naturally flow out of a saved person.

Many Fundamentalist believe that Catholics think they can just go through the motions of the Sacraments and get to heaven. They don’t understand that they in reality, are ways to bring us closer to Christ. Tools would be a good word to describe them, that or miracles. Either/ Both give a better concept for those who see the Sacraments as “works”.

Your former fundamental sister in Christ,
Maria


#6

TIP # 1

Stay away from these forums! :thumbsup:

TIP # 2

Stay away from Space Ghost :thumbsup:

:smiley:


#7

First, you take control of the debate by asking the questions. If he asks a question of you then you are defending and trying to justify your positions and Faith. By asking the questions you make him have to defend and prove his opinions. You also need less research to ask questions. Always take time to read the entire section when He quotes verses too. Never let him take one verse out of context and prove his point. Make him read the entire book for context when needed.

Second, use only an approved Catholic Bible. Make him prove why his abridged and edited version is correct and can be used. This one topic will take hours if needed.

Take a tip I learned from a Jewish friend, allways answer a question with a question. He’ll talk and talk but you’ll have the edge.

This is just a start too.

Oh yea, never let him change subjects when he can’t answer a question. This is a typical protestant ploy I learned in the Baptist church. Make him answer questions and do not allow him to change topics. Just end the debate till ready to continue on that topic.

More to say but I must go back to work.

Pray, pray, and pray. Start it with a prayer and let him see your Faith. Pray an hour before each hour you debate too.


#8

When you say a prayer before starting, make sure to end your prayer with, “and we ask this through Christ our Lord” or"we ask this in His precious name" Amen, or an equivelent. Not just Amen.


#9

I am only 17 and a senior in high school but I guess you could say I’ve found myself in similar situations. My best friend is baptist and we debate about this topic often. The best advice I can give to you is be prepared. Kind of like you are going to take a test…this may sound strange but I reccommend you study. Find all the information you can and just study it…memorize key lines or phrases…just prepare yourself so you’re not left tongue-tied. I have started a folder that I keep all my information in. It is all categorized an labeled so whenever I need to argue my point I have something to refer back to. So I have found taking notes and having information with you to refer back to is very helpful. I hope everything works out for you. God bless.


#10

If you are talking to a TULIP person or someone similar, make a decision before the debate what you are going to be…a Thomist or a Molinist. My experience is the Thomist gets a lot further with them (lucky me). Much can be seen as similar about providence and election.

If they are totally not a TULIP person (like a Mormon, maybe), then Molinist might be the safer perspective to talk from.

You’ll gain some respect if you are able to refer to scripture at appropriate intervals. The easiest way to do this is to read and reread one book of it, like Matthew, so you really know what is in it. Then you’ll always be able to come up with something relevant.

BTW, once you know one book, go on to the next!


#11

What in the name of Sweet Valley High is a TULIP person?


#12

[quote= Salvation ?
[/QUOTE]
If your only concern is not to suffer eternal punishment,
with all sincerity, declare yourself a nation.

Nations never see damnation, therefore redemption is not applicable to them, and the most you ever suffer is temporal punishment.

Andy
[/quote]


#13

[quote=montanaman]What in the name of Sweet Valley High is a TULIP person?
[/quote]

T.U.L.I.P. is an opinion taught by the great heritic Calvin and his followers the Calvinists. It basically says you have been picked by God to be saved before you were born. Predestination (the P. in the TULIP formula). Its just wierd and not so Christian. We believe in freewill as Christians just like Jesus taught and preached.

I must go back to work now. Wish I could go into more depth and clarity, perhaps others will?

TULIP = :whacky:


#14

[quote=montanaman]What in the name of Sweet Valley High is a TULIP person?
[/quote]

You’ll find Jimmy Akin’s “A Tiptoe Through TULIP” most helpful.

Peace and God bless! :slight_smile:

Eric


#15

I say - JUST STAY AWAY FROM IT!!! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_200v.gif

Sorry, I continually have really bad experiences with these people. I just left a website, that initially, I thought might be (a little) different - HA!.

These people have a mean-spirited and vicious hatred for the Catholic Church and anything connected with it. They will not listen to any “evidence” you can provide. They will always claim that it was not written in the proper time, the author is not who it’s attributed to and on and on… Nothing but the bible has any weight. They disregard every piece of supporting literature that discusses the beliefs of the early church. It’s like if you say something is white, they will always say it’s black - even if the proof and 100 other people are there to tell them it’s white - it will be black - because THEY say so and the Holy Spirit led them to believe that, no matter what anyone else says. They are their own infallible authority - the very thing that they say the Church is incapable of!

Their arrogance is astounding!!! Just don’t even get involved in it. Give them some resources/books for them to look into. If they want to they will. More than likely, they’ll just ignore it, just like they ignore 2000 years of teaching and learning that’s screaming in their ears. They will not hearit!!!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_204v.gif

Sorry for the tirade - I’m a little put out right now!


#16

[quote=Malachi4U]It basically says you have been picked by God to be saved before you were born. Predestination (the P. in the TULIP formula)
[/quote]

I think the P stands for “perseverance”. Catholics can meaningfully use the word “predestination”. We can’t talk about predestination to hell, however (it has to be qualified by foreseen demerits or some such). Here is one example of its use (CCC):

**600 **To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.


#17

[quote=Pug]I think the P stands for “perseverance”. Catholics can meaningfully use the word “predestination”. We can’t talk about predestination to hell, however (it has to be qualified by foreseen demerits or some such). Here is one example of its use (CCC):

**600 **To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
[/quote]

Thank you for correcting me, I was in a hurry to get back to work and may have made a blooper while tiptoeing through the TULIP’s:eek:.


#18

montanaman,

Remeber first and foremost that the man is the “FATHER” of your girlfriend! (Good thing we Catholics can use the word ‘father’)

Second, remember that the man IS A Christian! He just has strayed from the truth of His Church.

Third, remeber that protestants and Catholics do not use the same words with the same meanings. Define words for each other when on words like 'F’aith vs. 'f’aith, worship, adore, venerate, pray, ‘saved’, etc… ALL Catholics are ‘born again’ Christians for example, just read the verses about how baptism makes you born anew or born from above. If he uses some slick words just stop and define what each other means. When he says have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personnal Lord and saviour say “YES, of course I have, I’m Catholic!” Their Born again experience, when you acctually accept Christ, also has a name in the Catholic Church too, I forget off hand what we call it, something like “second awareness” or “second something?” (Sorry, Im having a senior momment, can somebody point this one out? Thats not the acctual word. I’ll remember it later tonight while sleeping and then I’ll have no PC available to send this to you and I’ll loose another nights sleep ragging myself about it too!)

Fourth, you have Faith on your side so don’t let him use his age to bully you around. Keep your Faith in God and let God be your sheild. Stand up to him - but politly. (He has God too, you’re both on HIS side. You’re just closer to the truth.)

Fifth, Take your time and study his statements. Never agree with anything he says till you know it is true. Just say, “That’s a good poitn, I’ll research that and get back with you.” Read all the verses around his quoted verses and even the entire chapter too if needed.

Sixth, You ask the questions and answer questions with questions like I said in an earlier post.

Seventh, Smile! Have fun with him. Don’t laugh outloud at any outlandish claims he makes like baptism referrs to a mother amniotic womb fluid!:rotfl: I’m sorry, I laughed too when I first heard that one, I still do.

I’ll write more later, I hope.


#19

Put these Gospel verses into your tool chest. The comments are mine and from personnal notes so they are not proof from Dogma, just my own notes.

Mt 3:10-12
Mt 7:15-23 We know true faith by its fruit! We are not saved by faith ‘alone’
Mt 9:20-21 She was not saved by faith ‘alone’
Mt 10:22
Mt 12:30-37 false teachers will pay for every wrong doing and word they say!
Mt 13:22-23 Those who ‘hear’ Jesus’ Word will bear fruit/works/deeds!
Mt 18:23-35 Salvation can be lost!
Mt 19:16-21
Mt 24:13
Mt 25:1-46 The oil in the lamps represents the good deeds we have stored up in our ‘F’aith through our lives work as do the coins
Mt 27:54 Were these soldiers ‘saved’ by faith alone?
Mt 28:18-20 Baptize all nations does not deny baptism to unbelievers or infants and shows the Godhead as three persons in one God. It also gives the Church its united mission. It commands us to obey all of Jesus’ commandments
Mk 3:23-29 A divided house cannot stand
Mk 4:18-19 Not all who hear the Word and believe in Him are saved. There must be fruit/works
Mk 4:23-24 We are judged as we judge
Mk 8:34-35 By taking up the cross we must ‘work’ to carry it. Jesus is the Gospel, the spoken Word not the Bible. We must die to be ‘saved’ for it does not happen while we are alive. Why carry a cross if we are saved by faith alone and once saved always saved?
Mk 10:13-31 Verse 18 God’s grace alone saves. Verse 24 states how hard it is to enter Gods kingdome, it is not as easy as faith alone. We can not save ourselves with such concepts as faith alone, only God can save us. Faith alone takes Gods saving Grace out of His hands and puts it into ours so that we become Mormon Gods! Poverty helps at salvation
Mk 11:13-21 This proves that Jesus is our judge. He will judge us by our fruits/deeds and if we are barren He will curse us too!
Mk 11:25-26 (KJV) We are judged as we judge others. How can we be judged if we are already saved? Did we take away Gods authority over us based on Luther’s self wrong-interpretation?
Mk 13:13 We are not saved until the end
Mk 13:22-23 We are ‘elect’ to be saved but not yet saved!
Mk 13:27
Mk 14:21 Seems Judas lost his salvation too!
Mk 16:16 This verse may not be in the original text and may have been added. It says if you believe you must be Baptized but belief is not a requirement. You must have a Baptism to be saved too if you believe


#20

Start your discussion by reading II Macc 7. This is a rich story of "F"aith! Read it first, if it does not make you shead a tear over their love for God I don’t know what will. (If he objects to it as non-Scripture then tell him it is in the origional KJV Bible. Why did protestants take it out only in the late 1800’s? Ask him to just let you read it as an example of "F"aith if not as Scripture too.) After you read this inspiring story of Faith then relate to Him an example of your persoonal Faith in God that will inspire a tear in him. Make him yearn to want Faith as rich as what you have in God (not just Jesus alone) and in His Church. Sometimes protestants can’t see Faith in Catholics, make him see it before you start ‘debateing’ (By the way, Gods Word is not open for debate.) Remember to tell him too of your close relationship with Jesus in your life and in the Eucharist. Tell Him also about the Holy Spirit in your life and and about our heavenly Father, sometimes protestants overlook the latter two entirely. The sign of the cross IS a prayer to all three persons of God all by itself! That’s why we make it, to pay honor, to adore, to worship all three person of one God. We knell (or bow), as did those in scripture to honor God too. Why did others stop? Will they bow or knell in heaven? Then why not here?

Discuss outward signs of Faith like the sign of the cross and kneelling the Catholics do vs. the lack of outward signs from non-Catholics.

PS. part of my post got deleted for Luke and John vesres. Let me know if you want them as well as the rest of the NT notes on Faith too. I have given you enough for days of talk already.:whacky: Data overload yet?


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