Same sex marriage and the various views in Christianity.


#1

Some of us may not relaize that there are various views of same sex marriage within Christianity. Here is a link to start a discussion. In this controversial issue, we should try to discuss this with much charity and grace.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessing_of_same-sex_unions_in_Christian_churches


#2

Those churches which teach marriage is anything other than between man and woman are introducing dangerous and novel things which have never been accepted within the most ancient of church communions. Orthodox, Latin, Oriental.


#3

[quote="IgnatianPhilo, post:2, topic:306463"]
Those churches which teach marriage is anything other than between man and woman are introducing dangerous and novel things which have never been accepted within the most ancient of church communions. Orthodox, Latin, Oriental.

[/quote]

Do you believe the Bible reveals that a marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman?


#4

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:3, topic:306463"]
Do you believe the Bible reveals that a marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman?

[/quote]

Sure. Jesus Himself says so. Allow me to show the relevant speech:

Matthew 19: [3] And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? [4] Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: [5] For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
[6] Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

Not: Two men. Not: Two women.

"For this reason God made male and female." Cleave together--one flesh. Whom GOD has joined together.

That is marriage.

Do some people degrade marriage? Sure they do. Some men and women do not marry with the intent to 'stay married'. Some marry from 'love' and then when the bloom is off the rose, hurry on to the next person they feel 'love' for. So?

We have many moral concepts and laws that express an ideal, including "Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength' and "love your neighbor as yourself.'

Can you tell me if ANYBODY in the world routinely and perfectly obeys those two commands? All the time? I don't think so.

But are we going to change them around and say that Christ didn't mean them? Or that it's perfectly all right to ignore what He said and make Christian teaching into something more 'tolerant' like, "Love God at home or in Church however you feel 'right', love your neighbor but only the way you want, when you want, and only those you want to BE your neighbor" and then claim we're following Christ's teachings in a better way?

Again, I don't think so.


#5

[quote="Tantum_ergo, post:4, topic:306463"]
Sure. Jesus Himself says so. Allow me to show the relevant speech:

Matthew 19: [3] And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? [4] Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: [5] For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
[6] Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

Not: Two men. Not: Two women.

"For this reason God made male and female." Cleave together--one flesh. Whom GOD has joined together.

That is marriage.

Do some people degrade marriage? Sure they do. Some men and women do not marry with the intent to 'stay married'. Some marry from 'love' and then when the bloom is off the rose, hurry on to the next person they feel 'love' for. So?

We have many moral concepts and laws that express an ideal, including "Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength' and "love your neighbor as yourself.'

Can you tell me if ANYBODY in the world routinely and perfectly obeys those two commands? All the time? I don't think so.

But are we going to change them around and say that Christ didn't mean them? Or that it's perfectly all right to ignore what He said and make Christian teaching into something more 'tolerant' like, "Love God at home or in Church however you feel 'right', love your neighbor but only the way you want, when you want, and only those you want to BE your neighbor" and then claim we're following Christ's teachings in a better way?

Again, I don't think so.

[/quote]

Nicely done.


#6

The devil twists scripture, so we cannot trust the written word without authoritative interpretation. The argument is over who has the authority. From the catechism:

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

I. MARRIAGE IN GOD’S PLAN

1602 Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of "the wedding-feast of the Lamb."85 Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its “mystery,” its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal “in the Lord” in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.86

Marriage in the order of creation

1603 "The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage."87 The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity,88 some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. "The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life."89

84 CIC, can. 1055 § 1; cf. GS 48 § 1.
85 Rev 19:7, 9; cf. Gen 1:26-27.
86 1 Cor 7:39; cf. Eph 5:31-32.
87 GS 48 § 1.
88 Cf. GS 47 § 2.
89 GS 47 § 1.

HOMOSEXUALITY

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

141 Cf. Gen 19:1-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.
142 CDF, Persona humana 8.


#7

It always amazes me when Christians are lumped in to one big group when it comes to gay marriage, and people on both sides of the issue do it. Gay rights advocates are quick to point out that what they want is at complete odds with what the Christians want, and Christians are quick to point out that gay marriage is antithetical to Christianity. But the reality is that many churches condone and even support homosexuality. I grew up in a church that allowed each individual congregation to decide how they feel about it, and most congregations within the denomination are ok with gay marriages being performed in the church. It offends my mom who is a very devout Protestant when people assume that she is against gay marriage because of her religion. In fact she is an activist for gay rights, and she would never be a member of much less tithe to a church that was against it.

I think its time that both sides of the debate recognize that there is a lot of diversity under the Christian umbrella and every church and Christian should be looked at individually. It is no secret that gay marriage is becoming more and more accepted and is gaining more and more support. Although the number of non religious people in the US is also rising, it is not rising fast enough to account for the increase of support for gays. It stands to reason that there have to be Christians on the other side of the issue as well.


#8

This has already been addressed in your other thread.


#9

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:3, topic:306463"]
Do you believe the Bible reveals that a marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman?

[/quote]

The bible certaintly has no concept of two people of the same sex marrying each other. However for me the bible alone is not the standard, but the bible, tradition and the church are teh standard and this is a novel practice which has been introduced into some churches, mostly of the protestant bent, Episcopalians stand out to me in this regaurd. Marriage as sacramental entity within the church, has certain functions, tied in of course with what Christ says and the example of genesis, that God created two people man and woman to propitiate. That they are the ones to teach their children which they have created the faith. To insert Homosexual "marriage" as if such a thing existed into scripture is clearly impossible and is blatantly wanting something in the text that cannot be there.


#10

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:7, topic:306463"]
It always amazes me when Christians are lumped in to one big group when it comes to gay marriage, and people on both sides of the issue do it. Gay rights advocates are quick to point out that what they want is at complete odds with what the Christians want, and Christians are quick to point out that gay marriage is antithetical to Christianity. But the reality is that many churches condone and even support homosexuality. I grew up in a church that allowed each individual congregation to decide how they feel about it, and most congregations within the denomination are ok with gay marriages being performed in the church. It offends my mom who is a very devout Protestant when people assume that she is against gay marriage because of her religion. In fact she is an activist for gay rights, and she would never be a member of much less tithe to a church that was against it.

I think its time that both sides of the debate recognize that there is a lot of diversity under the Christian umbrella and every church and Christian should be looked at individually. It is no secret that gay marriage is becoming more and more accepted and is gaining more and more support. Although the number of non religious people in the US is also rising, it is not rising fast enough to account for the increase of support for gays. It stands to reason that there have to be Christians on the other side of the issue as well.

[/quote]

Regardless of the numbers of "Christians" that support marriage between same sex couples, truth is not determined by a vote. I think po18guy demostrated by the very teachings of the Catholic Church that it is compassionate toward homosexual persons and wishes to protect their dignity as human beings. It cannot, however, support a life style in direct contradiction to God's natural law.


#11

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:7, topic:306463"]
It always amazes me when Christians are lumped in to one big group when it comes to gay marriage, and people on both sides of the issue do it. Gay rights advocates are quick to point out that what they want is at complete odds with what the Christians want, and Christians are quick to point out that gay marriage is antithetical to Christianity. But the reality is that many churches condone and even support homosexuality. I grew up in a church that allowed each individual congregation to decide how they feel about it, and most congregations within the denomination are ok with gay marriages being performed in the church. It offends my mom who is a very devout Protestant when people assume that she is against gay marriage because of her religion. In fact she is an activist for gay rights, and she would never be a member of much less tithe to a church that was against it.

I think its time that both sides of the debate recognize that there is a lot of diversity under the Christian umbrella and every church and Christian should be looked at individually. It is no secret that gay marriage is becoming more and more accepted and is gaining more and more support. Although the number of non religious people in the US is also rising, it is not rising fast enough to account for the increase of support for gays. It stands to reason that there have to be Christians on the other side of the issue as well.

[/quote]

All I can say to this is: In the face of direct quotes from Scripture against the idea of gay marriage and homosexual behavior, some of that directly from Jesus' mouth, coupled with thousands of years of Christian tradition blatantly and specifically condemning it as a sin, it would appear that the churches that endorse gay marriage and homosexual behavior are, by their very actions, **not Christian at all. **You can't pick some and not the rest; it's now how Christianity works.


#12

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:7, topic:306463"]
It always amazes me when Christians are lumped in to one big group when it comes to gay marriage, and people on both sides of the issue do it. Gay rights advocates are quick to point out that what they want is at complete odds with what the Christians want, and Christians are quick to point out that gay marriage is antithetical to Christianity. But the reality is that many churches condone and even support homosexuality. I grew up in a church that allowed each individual congregation to decide how they feel about it, and most congregations within the denomination are ok with gay marriages being performed in the church. It offends my mom who is a very devout Protestant when people assume that she is against gay marriage because of her religion. In fact she is an activist for gay rights, and she would never be a member of much less tithe to a church that was against it.

I think its time that both sides of the debate recognize that there is a lot of diversity under the Christian umbrella and every church and Christian should be looked at individually. It is no secret that gay marriage is becoming more and more accepted and is gaining more and more support. Although the number of non religious people in the US is also rising, it is not rising fast enough to account for the increase of support for gays. It stands to reason that there have to be Christians on the other side of the issue as well.

[/quote]

So, you subscribe to the novel "inhospitality" argument for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?


#13

[quote="Lochias, post:11, topic:306463"]
All I can say to this is: In the face of direct quotes from Scripture against the idea of gay marriage and homosexual behavior, some of that directly from Jesus' mouth, coupled with thousands of years of Christian tradition blatantly and specifically condemning it as a sin, it would appear that the churches that endorse gay marriage and homosexual behavior are, by their very actions, **not Christian at all. **You can't pick some and not the rest; it's now how Christianity works.

[/quote]

Exactly. Christianity has been polluted by this world's ideas to the point that one can be an active homosexual, a money-grubbing televangelist, a person with the means to do good - but no desire to help others, to those who reject baptism, to those who believe in almost anything, as long as they use the key word "Christian" somewhere in their diatribe.


#14

[quote="po18guy, post:12, topic:306463"]
So, you subscribe to the novel "inhospitality" argument for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

[/quote]

.........No.

I'm an atheist, I don't believe that it happened at all.


#15

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:14, topic:306463"]
.........No.

I'm an atheist, I don't believe that it happened at all.

[/quote]

I find that curious, I guess...do you believe that Christian churches can change what they want to believe willy-nilly based on the fact that you think their core belief system is a fantasy?

If so, don't you find that to be somewhat disingenuous on your part?

If not, then what's your stake in all this?


#16

[quote="SteveVH, post:5, topic:306463"]
Nicely done.

[/quote]

Agreed.

Jon


#17

[quote="Lochias, post:15, topic:306463"]
I find that curious, I guess...do you believe that Christian churches can change what they want to believe willy-nilly based on the fact that you think their core belief system is a fantasy?

If so, don't you find that to be somewhat disingenuous on your part?

If not, then what's your stake in all this?

[/quote]

If you reread what I wrote I was just making commentary that people on both sides of the issue like to group all Christians together and that that isn't wise because there is a lot of diversity within that group. That isn't me running to anyone's defense or making any sort of theological argument, that is just a statement of fact.

The differences between Protestant and Catholic theology are so profound and the structure of the churches is so different. While it makes sense that Catholics can't decide that gay marriage is ok (because in doing so they would be rejecting the very basis of Catholicism) the focus on tradition, natural law, and Old Testament literalism is not there in many Protestant denominations.

Do I think that churches can change "willy-nilly"? No. Well, yes, I mean, I can't stop them. Would I take those churches seriously if I were religious? Probably not. But the church I grew up in for example never had a stance against gay marriage. It was not part of their theology. Many Protestant denominations are like that because instead of church tradition and even pastoral guidance one of the main backbones of the faith is a personal relationship with god and listening to what god is telling you in your heart. That is completely opposite of what the Catholic faith teaches.


#18

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:3, topic:306463"]
Do you believe the Bible reveals that a marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman?

[/quote]

Ah, come on... try to answer the question. :popcorn:


#19

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:17, topic:306463"]
If you reread what I wrote I was just making commentary that people on both sides of the issue like to group all Christians together and that that isn't wise because there is a lot of diversity within that group. That isn't me running to anyone's defense or making any sort of theological argument, that is just a statement of fact.

The differences between Protestant and Catholic theology are so profound and the structure of the churches is so different. While it makes sense that Catholics can't decide that gay marriage is ok (because in doing so they would be rejecting the very basis of Catholicism) the focus on tradition, natural law, and Old Testament literalism is not there in many Protestant denominations.

Do I think that churches can change "willy-nilly"? No. Well, yes, I mean, I can't stop them. Would I take those churches seriously if I were religious? Probably not. But the church I grew up in for example never had a stance against gay marriage. It was not part of their theology. Many Protestant denominations are like that because instead of church tradition and even pastoral guidance one of the main backbones of the faith is a personal relationship with god and listening to what god is telling you in your heart. That is completely opposite of what the Catholic faith teaches.

[/quote]

"God", in this sense, is a proper noun, and should be capitalized.

Jon


#20

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:1, topic:306463"]
Some of us may not relaize that there are various views of same sex marriage within Christianity. Here is a link to start a discussion. In this controversial issue, we should try to discuss this with much charity and grace.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessing_of_same-sex_unions_in_Christian_churches

[/quote]

Just a point of clarification, if you have not known already. The "Old Catholic, Reformed Catholic Churches and Liberal Catholic Church" that bless same sex marriage which are mentioned in the wikipedia are not part of the Catholic Church. They are independent of the Catholic Church despite some similarity in the names. The Catholic Church does not allow such marriage.


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