This was posted on another thread and felt that it should be viewed. It gives me pause to see those that argue for Same Sex Marriage, saying “we just want what everyone else has”…just our rights they say…and let’s just see how children of Same Sex Marriages do…
Canada is a glowing example of the Same Sex Marriage mindset.
As I write, two Canadian provinces are considering legislation that would likely prevent educators even in private denominational schools from teaching that they disapprove of same-sex marriage, and **a senior government minister in Ontario recently announced that if the Roman Catholic Church did not approve of homosexuality or gay marriage, it “would have to change its teaching.” **What has become painfully evident is that many of those who brought same-sex marriage to Canada have no respect for freedom of conscience and no intention of tolerating contrary opinion, whether that opinion is shaped by religious or by secular belief. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which has just turned 30 years old, fundamentally changed the direction of the legal system, emphasizing communities more than individuals. This has empowered minority groups with the most appeal to quash individual freedom by exercising their political and judicial influence. The system in the United States is different, more concerned with freedom of speech, and generally more respectful of the individual. But the groups and activists trying to silence their opponents are arguably even more radical and vociferous south of the border and, anyway, legal and political assumptions are capable of change; they certainly changed in Canada.
Shall we agree to agree that Canada is a warning of what the Same Sex Marriage debate is really about?
The Catholic Church has out-lasted many past great nations and will continue to do so. The Church will never change her teachings. The most a government can do is force people into martyrdom, or force Christianity to be an underground movement.
He was commenting on the worst possible scenario. Yes, it is quite possible that Catholics would be killed or that we would be forced “underground”. In fact, it is happening today in places like the middle east and in china.
Now do I think this worst case scenario is going to happen tomorrow? Don’t be silly. But could it happen within the century. Unfortunately yes. The fathers of our country understood that you have to fight to keep your rights.
Furthermore, the Germans give a notable example. Do you think they really thought their government was going to go so wrong? Certainly not, but once it happened, it was too late.
I think it’s wrong to force private citizens in a private enterprise to be forced to say they agree with something they don’t. I would be against any legislation that forced private actors to quiet their views.
However, you have to remember that the USA enjoys free speech other countries do not. For instance, in some European nations, it is actually illegal to deny the holocaust happened or to voice racist views, an din some cases, anti homosexual views. Now, I think this is very wrong, because it amounts to the thought police. I strongly believe that people should be allowed to say whatever they want, no matter how disgusting I find their speech. Now of course, that doesn’t mean that speech should not have consequences - of course what you say may result in people criticizing you back, or not doing business with you, or avoiding you. But you certainly shouldn’t be jailed or forced to change your belief system no matter how repugnant it is, so long as you aren’t inciting violence or panic. I think what Canada is doing is really wrong.
Really what you should be criticizing is the lack of free speech in Canada and gay rights advocates pushing for such legislation, not gay rights advocates here in America who have nothing to do with this…excpet of course for any in America who do promote this sort of thing.
After all, do you blame Eli Weisel or the Jewish anti defamation league or people involved in the civil rights movement because people aren’t legally allowed to speak out against them in some places? Or do you criticize the laws in those countires that suppress free speech, while veing thankful you live in a country in the USA that does give us the freedom to think and say waht we want (for the most part), no matter how unpopular or controversial a view it may be. What’s happening in Canada *couldn’t *happen here, the same way that the civil rights movement did not result in racist speech being illegalized here even though it was in some other countries that also had civil rights movements. We have a constitution that prevents these sorts of free speech violations, for which I am grateful.
Do you think we should take back rights won by the black community because some nations now suppress racist viewpoints? If not, then you really can’t justify wanting to stop the gay rights movement based on some country suppressing homophobic viewpoints.
In some countries, Christians advocate the torture and murder of homosexuals, such as certain places in the Middle East and Africa. Some Christian anti-gay-rights-groups based in the United States have worked with leaders abroad to try and rachet up violence against homosexuals and even impose the death penalty for them, and to spread propaganda encouraging violence against homosexuals.
Does that mean that *your *end goal, coptic christian, is the torture and murder of all homosexuals? Are you responsible for the actions of all people in every country that share some ideology with you, and should we judge you by their actions?
After all, isn’t torturing and murdering people far worse than preventing their speech in schools? If we should all just agree that the gay rights movement needs to be snuffed out world wide because in some countries it has been shown to possibly lead to the suppression of free speech, than surely, by your logic, the Christian campaign against homosexual rights/marriage should also be ended because in some instances this movement has lead to torture and murder.
heck, for that matter, where I’m from, you have far more Christian Churches who are pro gay marriage, and vocally pro gay marriage, than are against it. So hey, does that mean the end goal of Christianity is the legalization of gay marriage? Or does it mean that sometimes people who have (or at least claim to have) a shared ideology with you don’t actually speak for you and represent your views?
The Germans…you mean those people who put homosexuals in concentration camps?
Well, according to you, any action against a group of people means that group of poeple should immediately start preparing for the worst possible scenario, and martyrdom.
As Christians speak against homosexuals and wish to suppress their rights, doesn’t that mean that homosexuals should assume that your ultimate end goal is to put them all in concentration camps, and that they should respond accordingly? You said that the second someone goes after your rights, you should start preparing for the worst.
is your advice to homosexuals to prepare to be sent to concentration camps? If not, why not, especially considering Christians already are killing homosexuals in some places, and have been perfectly willing to kill them throughout history? One common way for Christians to execute a person for homosexuality in the past was to stick a red hot iron up their anus until they died. Are you saying that this is what homosexuals should expect if Christians continue on their political campaign against gay rights? After all, according to you, if a group has been seriously oppressed throughout history, and then anyone seeks to restrict the rights of this group in any way, that group should then assume they are going to be killed.
Also, why do you suppose that European nations haven’t started murdering racists and anti-Semites even though they have laws that restrict the rights of racists and anti Semites? Do you expect them to start murdering them in the near future?
Germany has laws concerning Holocaust denial, most other European states do not. Please do not treat Europe as a homogenous entity, laws regarding the issues you comment on vary considerably from nation to nation.
Germans were also locked up in the concentration and death camps, as were a large number of Catholics, although they were not in most cases directly targetted due to their faith.
it is very, very common for perpetrators of oppression to paint themselves as the victim. This is how they justify oppressing a group of people, they aren’t doing it because they just look down on that group and want to treat them as less than human…it’s always about “no, if we give X group rights, then we will lose our rights and we will be oppressed, so you see, we have to keep oppressing them because if we don’t, they will oprress and/or kill us.” It’s what the Nazis said against the Jews, and what racists said against Medgar Evers.
You always want to posit any kind of violence or oppression against a group as pre-emptive defense. Oh, if we don’t keep the blacks slaves, they will kill all the white people in retribution upon being freed! If we don’t kill all the Jews, they will destroy us and our society! If we (speaking of the Chinese) don’t suppress Christians, then they will come after us and undermine our institutions and security! And look, here are isolated examples in which a white/German/chinese person DID get harmed/oppressed/killed by a black/Jew/Christian, so we can use that to justify anything we do from now on!
Much like how the U.S. used massacres by Native Americans against white settlers as justification for wide scale genocide against all Native Americans.
You guys certainly know how to play the game. Unfortunately, more and more people are able to see through your little ruse these days, including Christians. More and more Christians, including Catholics, are accepting homosexuals and gay marriage, so you really do look silly when you try and tell me the Christian churches in my town with gay pride flags out front to show solidarity with the Pride movement are ultimately planning to drive themselves underground and force themselves to be martyrs.
You (speaking of anti-gay promoters, not Christians as a whole, as I don’t see them as one and the same) aren’t going to get marytred, at least, not because of the gay rights movement. You’re just going to become increasingly irrelevent in society. I think to you, that’s worse. At least maryrdom is dramatic and gives you bragging rights. Being relegated to the kooky bigoted uncle people roll their eyes at at family gatherings probably is a lot less appealing sounding, isn’t it?
You guys certainly know how to play the game, you learned well from your Nazi forebearers. Unfortunately, more an dmore people are able to see through your little ruse these days.
That is a disgusting compaison to make and insulting to posters en masse. You are calling the posters in general here who opposse gay marriage Nazis, I for one find that personally offensive as my wife’s family lost many members who were killed in the concentration and death camps.