Satan: Bad guy or bum rap?


#21

Wormwood - anyone here that you talk to who has had to deal with an exorcism, demonic possession, demonic obsession, has had past dealings with the occult will tell you the same thing. Satan is REAL and very EVIL.

Christ casts out demons in Matthew 8:28-34, Mt 17:14-20, Luke 4:31-37 for starters.


#22

…like you and I, Satan had a choice to make… he made his…

…the perfect example of what not to do… you and I do not have to travel that path, but it’s still OUR choice…

…here’s hoping we learn from others mistakes…

Peace!:cool:

http://jeannero.free.fr/dessins-animes-2/SpaceGhost.gif


#23

[quote=Wormwood]The reason I mention this is because there are a set of points that were used specifically for demonic possession, but as the nature of medicine change in the world, the points evolved into what they truly were, which was points for siezures, and emotional disturbances.
[/quote]

This is not entirely true. Chinese medicine changed its spiritual qualities when China went communist. At this time the whole eighth chapter of the Divine Husbandsman’s [guide to medicinal plants] was taken out as it had to do with metaphysical things.

The Qi, however, is not the only energy that is used. There is the shen (spirit), the jing (life force) Yin and Yang, and other things.

The existence (or even the simple classification)of these things does not refute the possibility of a creator God making them available. As a matter of fact, there is nothing to deny that God had a hand in the creation of man…we know he did. But whether or not we classify them as such is up to us. The idea here is that Jesus (most explicitly in the sacrament of the anointing of the sick) cures people’s sicknesses and possessions. There are other avenues to this type of curing, be it studying herbal medicine as “God gave them the plants of the earth…” (or something to this effect).

But demon possession, which has not only been discussed bibilically and in legend (see the medieval writings), is also outlined in the psychology of Jung whence the “complex” takes on an “autonomous” character. This is what we call a neurosis. Now, from the side of science, one would say it stems from the person’s background, from empirical roots. From the religious side it stems from the devil and his friends.

I think the more successful (and Jung came to this conclusion as well, although he suffered a strange way of dealing with it) is the religious approach, because the classification of a “complex” or a “demon” does not account for unknown origins…that is, does not account for the complete difference between the demon and the personal experiences of the human.

God bless,
Aaron


#24

Oh, and Wormwood:

His punishment was not to live here with us, although that was included in the deal. That’s like saying that if I go to prison, my punishment is to hang out with the prison Chaplain (I guess this could be a punishment depending on his denomination ;)), when the mandated punishment is lack of freedom to go home. His punishment was to be banned from heaven. Later he was cursed, etc.

He also appears in Job, trying to convince God of the unholiness of Job the servant. Now, I would have to check my catechism, but I think Satan is considered a real being by Catholic doctrine. I know that in St. Thomas Aquinas’ text “On Evil” the devil (and devils) are dealt with rather thoroughly with specific reference to the Bible, OT and NT. But he is not the final word that I know of, however as a saint he is considered to have been given the gift of theology, and thus is the Angelic Doctor of the Church. Once again, I don’t know how much weight his arguments hold in the Church, but I am certain that your questions are answered in said text.

God bless,
Aaron


#25

Eden:

Wormwood - You may have answered this on another thread but your profile says “N/A”. What faith do you profess to be, if any?

The chuch of the great and powerful N/A. In the beggining there was N. N begot A and he saw that it was good…
I am non-denominationally agnostic :slight_smile:

Wormwood - anyone here that you talk to who has had to deal with an exorcism, demonic possession, demonic obsession, has had past dealings with the occult will tell you the same thing. Satan is REAL and very EVIL.

You can also easily come by UFO abduction stories as well, or lochness monster sightings, or any of the myriad of scams and superstitous nonsense that people peddle for whatever reason. As for past dealings with the occult, I have many first hand experiences. From the most ancient middle eastern wizardry to the writings of Alister Crowley and Anton LeVey. These texts included everything from conjuring demons to do your bidding, to opening seven gates of Hell. Nothing profound or prolific ever occured. Even in the presence of ones who claim to be masters of these arts, results were usually little more than speculation. It is a con, and I am sorry if that is not what you guys wanted to hear me say. The people that practice these arcane “arts” are usually losers that try to compensate by controlling the divine powers, but their lives will usually reflect little if any power or control. If they ARE controlling demons they do a terrible job of getting what they want, or showing any proof that they did anything other than waste candles and inscense.

Christ casts out demons in Matthew 8:28-34, Mt 17:14-20, Luke 4:31-37 for starters

Well I hope you have some finishers because these fail to convince me. If you read the verses in Mt 9 he was curing people of ailments. As I said before, certain emotional disorders and physiological disorders were thought of as demons in those days. Emotional problems like tourette’s, incoherant speech (babbling), and epilepsy were thought of as demons. In fact that is exactly what Mt 17:14 is about…an epileptic child…That Jesus cast the “demons” out were probably the words of the narrator. Anyone can cast seizures out…if you stand there long enough, it will go away. In fact, I can cure these same demons, and so can any acupuncturist. I can stop a seizure at anytime, and I do not invoke holy powers to do it…if is truly a demon, then how is this possible?

Space Ghost:.

…the perfect example of what not to do… you and I do not have to travel that path, but it’s still OUR choice…

…here’s hoping we learn from others mistakes…

Peace!:cool:

This is what I was getting from it to, more of an allegory than a scapegoat.


#26

[quote=But for Grace]Wormwood - anyone here that you talk to who has had to deal with an exorcism, demonic possession, demonic obsession, has had past dealings with the occult will tell you the same thing. Satan is REAL and very EVIL.

Christ casts out demons in Matthew 8:28-34, Mt 17:14-20, Luke 4:31-37 for starters.
[/quote]

Thanks But for Grace, I was just about to go look for some verses, but I see you took care of that for me.


#27

This is not entirely true. Chinese medicine changed its spiritual qualities when China went communist. At this time the whole eighth chapter of the Divine Husbandsman’s [guide to medicinal plants] was taken out as it had to do with metaphysical things.

The Qi, however, is not the only energy that is used. There is the shen (spirit), the jing (life force) Yin and Yang, and other things.

To start I should say that I have a master’s in traditional chinese medicine, and I am one year away from my O.M.D. so the rudimentary explainations and over simplifications are not neccessary. If I had posted that a demon is one form of a shen disturbance, or phlegm misting the orifices of the heart, do you think that anyone would have continued reading? And your explaination that communism is what stopped this line of thinking is proposterous. The medicine had evolved, just as their understanding of sickness. Just as they had the huang hun lun then they moved to five elements and eight principals. The symptoms and manifestations of “demons” did not simply disappear, but were rather reclassified as illness became understood. It is true that the communist party ruled out books that contained divine formulas and such, but the same knowledge is preserved in various texts of different names. Just as kung-fu was outlawed yet people can still practice wushu, because comrades should not fight comrades, but in wushu there is no opponent…kung fu is preserved but in a slightly different form. There were no demons, just people that did not understand sickness.

He also appears in Job, trying to convince God of the unholiness of Job the servant.

Yes interesting thing that. How does Satan appear befoe God at will. And if Satan is the root of all evil, why does the lord not slay him, or at least see through his obvious goading?

His punishment was to be banned from heaven. Later he was cursed, etc.

Yeah…with us. If he is the second most perfect being (well this raises many questions like why was his instinct to rebel?..) and he is sent here to live out forever…we have got to be like fingernails on a chalkboard…I can barely stand half these people running around and I am no where near perfect :slight_smile: Think about it…you have knowledge of some of the most obscure and arcane secrets of the universe…and all day every day you have to listen to people blather on about trips to the mall, meaningless realationships, or what couch looks good in their living room…I want to hang myself right now just thinking about an ETERNITY of that :wink:


#28

[quote=Wormwood]Think about it…you have knowledge of some of the most obscure and arcane secrets of the universe…and all day every day you have to listen to people blather on about trips to the mall, meaningless realationships, or what couch looks good in their living room…
[/quote]

I said almost the same thing to my friend the other day.


#29

Well after reading through everything… I have some thoughts in point form that I would like to share… nothing specific to anything…

  1. The greatest evil that Satan has done is proving to the world that he does not exist.

  2. Behind so many decisions in poilitics throughout history, the decisions were based on $$. [font=Arial]Likewise, [/font]Man’s evil actions throughout history, Satan sure helped and/or he sat back & smiled from [font=Arial Black]BEHIND the scenes. Can u see the comparison? [/font]

  3. Some of the great Saints in history have said that Satan would approach them and question their actions. Forgive me for I do not recall any of them but I believe that St. Catharine & Padre Pio were examples of this.

  4. If Satan wants anything from us it is to steal our faith in Christ.

  5. We exist in a world that is viewed & experienced by Angels & Demons.

  6. Those occults & other things are nonsense but can open doors.

  7. Do not spend your time in thought thinking why Satan acts the way he does but how you can be a better Christian. Makes sense right?

  8. Wormwood, your time spent thinking about Satan in the OT & NT maybe educational, why not spend your time reading & studying Jesus’s actions?

  9. I appreciated the scripture verses in the above thread… but wished I was reading another thread about something more important to me. ha ha!

Thanks.


#30

So it is because the messiah came that the christians had to draw conclusions about satan? That is to say, it was part of the Jewish tradition that after the messiah, the ultimate evil would be revealed?

Jews don’t claim to know what the Messiah will reveal, but they do believe that he will be a great teacher with great insight into God’s plan and the Law. One thing you have to keep in mind about Jewish tradition is that they don’t tend to speak on that which isn’t revealed, and don’t have too many expectations on what WILL be revealed (with the notable exception of Kabbalah, which is a fringe thing by definition, which isn’t to say that it’s a bad thing). They do discuss their opinions, and boy does Judaism contain a lot of opinions, but very little, if anything, is settled Jewish Tradition about the content of future revelations.

Does this appear in NT? I thought the fall of the morning star was in OT…

Some people take the passage in Isaiah you are mentioning as refering to Satan, but it is actually directly refering to a Babylonian king. At most it is a “type” to the Fall of Satan, meaning it mirrors it. In the context, however, it is plainly an insult towards an evil king. Jews don’t recognize it as pertaining to the Satan at all.

Sometimes Ghosty it’s quality not quanity that counts :wink:

Tell that to Jesus and the Apostles, then. I didn’t talk about Satan or write it all down :stuck_out_tongue:


#31

[quote=Wormwood] As for past dealings with the occult, I have many first hand experiences. From the most ancient middle eastern wizardry to the writings of Alister Crowley and Anton LeVey. These texts included everything from conjuring demons to do your bidding, to opening seven gates of Hell. Nothing profound or prolific ever occured. Even in the presence of ones who claim to be masters of these arts, results were usually little more than speculation. It is a con, and I am sorry if that is not what you guys wanted to hear me say. The people that practice these arcane “arts” are usually losers that try to compensate by controlling the divine powers, but their lives will usually reflect little if any power or control. If they ARE controlling demons they do a terrible job of getting what they want, or showing any proof that they did anything other than waste candles and inscense.
[/quote]

I don’t know what to say. You are right, the so called occultists that you were around sound like they were losers, or at least not very skilled. Unfortunately I have not been so blessed as you as to witness such a stelar streak of failed attempts. I have seen things that should not be.

Tony B. - Those things are not as much nonsence as you say that they are, if they were they would have been abandoned long ago.


#32
  1. Behind so many decisions in poilitics throughout history, the decisions were based on $. [font=Arial]Likewise, [/font]Man’s evil actions throughout history, Satan sure helped and/or he sat back & smiled from [font=Arial Black]BEHIND the scenes. Can u see the comparison?[/font]

No. What you have provided is one case of explaination, meaning greed caused corruption. The second argument is speculation and scapegoating.

  1. If Satan wants anything from us it is to steal our faith in Christ.
  1. We exist in a world that is viewed & experienced by Angels & Demons.

Both are just speculation.

  1. Those occults & other things are nonsense but can open doors.

Self-conflicting argument.

  1. Do not spend your time in thought thinking why Satan acts the way he does but how you can be a better Christian. Makes sense right?

Not really. Especially when you consider that I am not a christian. I am merely trying to discover the root of the diffussion of responsibility tradition that seems to exist today, but not in OT.

  1. Wormwood, your time spent thinking about Satan in the OT & NT maybe educational, why not spend your time reading & studying Jesus’s actions?

I have studied both. You must first set the foundation before building a house. The fact is that the OT is considerably more voluminous than NT, therefore to understand your view I need to know about the transition from OT to NT, and how your traditions evolved.

  1. I appreciated the scripture verses in the above thread… but wished I was reading another thread about something more important to me. ha ha!

The solution to this one should be evident…don’t read this post. :wink:


#33

Some people take the passage in Isaiah you are mentioning as refering to Satan, but it is actually directly refering to a Babylonian king.

Ah thank you for clarifying. I was admittedly using a protestant interpretation, I mistook this as the universal christian view. Thanks for the correction Ghosty.

Tell that to Jesus and the Apostles, then. I didn’t talk about Satan or write it all down :stuck_out_tongue:

Touche. Maybe I will :smiley:

But for Grace
I don’t know what to say. You are right, the so called occultists that you were around sound like they were losers, or at least not very skilled. Unfortunately I have not been so blessed as you as to witness such a stelar streak of failed attempts. I have seen things that should not be.

What sort of things have you seen exactly? Was it luck that I witnessed no success? Or was it a skeptical mindset? The people were proposed masters of the black arts, everything from voodoo priests to people claiming to possess the “true” necronomicon. All were imposters. A certain level of belief was required to achieve “results”. If their magic were true, it would prove itself by virtue of it’s deeds. That has yet to happen. The only way that these occultist survive is fleecing tourists, and recieving aid from secret societies and such (hellfire club and the like). If they had true power, could they not create wealth. or seize it from an enemy? Perhaps they should be reviled for offering false hope to people, but feared? I think not.


#34

I was admittedly using a protestant interpretation, I mistook this as the universal christian view.

Your first and biggest mistake. Trust Protestants when they say Jesus lived, and nothing beyond that. By definition they aren’t really in touch with Judeo-Christian history :stuck_out_tongue:

What sort of things have you seen exactly? Was it luck that I witnessed no success? Or was it a skeptical mindset? The people were proposed masters of the black arts, everything from voodoo priests to people claiming to possess the “true” necronomicon. All were imposters.

I wouldn’t call it luck, I’d call it the benefit of hanging out with charlatans. Personally I’m skeptical of ANYONE who claims to be able to call up and bind demons. The only people in Scripture who were able to command demons were the holy, and most people who walk around claiming to be able to do so aren’t paragons of Judeo-Christian virtue by any stretch.

In fact, Jesus specifically addresses the fact that the demonic can not summon and bind the demonic (Matthew 12). People can theoretically let themselves be the “devil’s plaything”, but they can’t make the devil be their own plaything. This is why, in Judeo-Christian theology, demons possess humans and not the other way around.

The reason for holding such people in disdain, beyond their obvious arrogance, is that they deign to even make contact with such beings in the first place, whether or not they are successful in the end. That’s enough reason for them to be mistrusted as far as Christians and Jews are concerned.

BTW, I find it funny that people claim to possess the “real” Necronomicon, and I’m sure Mr. Lovecraft would be too. He must be spinning in his grave whenever some twit claims to hold a real copy of his fictional, and self-contradictory, invention :stuck_out_tongue:

Incidently, I’m a HUGE H.P. Lovecraft fan, and Jimmy Akin, a Catholic Answers (the people who run this website) apologist is also apparently a fan of his :smiley:


#35

[font=Verdana]Your first and biggest mistake. Trust Protestants when they say Jesus lived, and nothing beyond that. By definition they aren’t really in touch with Judeo-Christian history :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh pike off Ghosty, I said I was sorry :slight_smile:

[font=Verdana]wouldn’t call it luck, I’d call it the benefit of hanging out with charlatans. Personally I’m skeptical of ANYONE who claims to be able to call up and bind demons. The only people in Scripture who were able to command demons were the holy, and most people who walk around claiming to be able to do so aren’t paragons of Judeo-Christian virtue by any stretch.

“Benefit” …heh. I used to live in New Orleans and I currently have access to some of these people in San Fran… these people are nothing. The very nature of their “powers” is laughable…but they too trace their traditions to the earliest times and use text to support this. I have yet to meet a priest who has performed any comparable rituals, including exorcism. So as for the “holy” weilding these powers I have yet to confront one.[/font]

[/font]

[font=Verdana]The reason for holding such people in disdain, beyond their obvious arrogance, is that they deign to even make contact with such beings in the first place, whether or not they are successful in the end.

Well I guess I too am guilty here as I did go to their rituals hoping to at least see something. I think that curiosity into things of this nature is only natural, especially when confronted with these suppossed “wizards” on a daily basis.

[font=Verdana]BTW, I find it funny that people claim to possess the “real” Necronomicon, and I’m sure Mr. Lovecraft would be too. He must be spinning in his grave whenever some twit claims to hold a real copy of his fictional, and self-contradictory, invention :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, notice the quotations in the original statment. I was curious if anyone would get that. Of course it would be you. If you like Lovecraft, you might like his inspiration and the true creator of the necronomicon myth, Alister Crowley. It is nice to find a place with some well read people, good job Ghosty :stuck_out_tongue: [/font][/font]


#36

Yeah, notice the quotations in the original statment. I was curious if anyone would get that. Of course it would be you. If you like Lovecraft, you might like his inspiration and the true creator of the necronomicon myth, Alister Crowley.

I have no love for Crowley. At least Lovecraft didn’t believe his own nonsense, and made it very clear that he was a fiction writer. Crowley seems like a sad man who took himself too seriously.

Just my :twocents:

:smiley:


#37

Ghosty

Just once can’t you have a nice post? Must you always have something negative to say? :stuck_out_tongue:
I was just pointing out that Crowley was the true creator of the whole necronomicon mythos. The funny part about the “coven” that claimed to have the “real” necronomicon is that all I could think of was Evil Dead and Army of Darkness while I was in their presence. I couldn’t help but speculate that the mighty chin of Bruce Campbell could crush these fools…it was hard to take them seriously (especially knowing what I do about Crowley). :slight_smile:
Certainly, if these are the minions of Satan, you guys have NOTHING to worry about.


#38

good morning,

[quote=Wormwood]…I can stop a seizure at anytime, and I do not invoke holy powers to do it…
[/quote]

[font=Verdana]as an epileptic, this really bothers me. you are the only person i’ve ever heard claim this power. if you can truly stop a seizure at any time, i hope that you are using your power on a regular basis. but am inclined to think you are cruel for not sharing this power so that your brothers and sisters no longer have to suffer from damage caused when we thrash around uncontrollably. right now, i’m taking medicine twice a day that we really don’t ‘know’ is working except that i’m not seizing. and if i do, we adjust my meds and hope that’ll work. i’d rather have the people around me just stop the seizures if they occur. btw, 1) does your power undo any damage caused before you stopped it and 2) is the patient still worn out after or are they unaffected by the seizure?

regarding satan as the snake, i would also suggest that by saying, “He [the devil] was a murderer from the beginning…and [is] the father of lies,” J is directing us to understand that the snake who lied in Genesis, the beginning, was, in fact, Satan. his lie encouraged our parents to disobey Daddy, which got us kicked out of Eden, preventing us from eating of the tree of life, thus subjecting us to death.
and while there were other histories that in some fashion mirror that of the OT, it is only in the OT that it was the action of God alone that brought about our creation. as i understand it, within the others there is a struggle between good and evil that brought us about. Scripture tells us rather that it was only the will of a loving God who created everything and 'saw that it was good.'
it would seem plausible for our early cousins to get the story nearly right; despite having moved away from God, (remember, as early as the time of Noah, Daddy had regretted creating us because our wickedness left no room in our hearts for him), they would have retained some memory of what had gone on with our parents and earliest cousins.

anywho, please forward your secret for stopping seizures to my neurologist.

thanks for listening,
t

ps. uncle Lu says he’s delighted that you don’t believe he exists. he’s hoping you’ll persist in your thinking so that he’ll be able to discuss it with you for a long time to come.

[/font]


#39

[font=Verdana]you are the only person i’ve ever heard claim this power. if you can truly stop a seizure at any time,

Well I assure you I am not the only person to claim this ability. If you had read a few more lines you would have read that any acupuncturist could take care of that for you. You seem to be supporting the demon theory, so why not have a priest exorcise the demon? Or try both suggestions and see which has the best results? I am sorry to hear about your condition, but the meds you take are not designed to make you well, just prevent your symptoms. It would be in your best interest to seek an alternative therapy. Do your own research and draw your own conclusions, but just try something else for your own sake. In any case if the ancient tradition still holds true, how do pharmacuticals aid you in controlling your possession.

[/font]

[font=Verdana]i hope that you are using your power on a regular basis. but am inclined to think you are cruel for not sharing this power so that your brothers and sisters no longer have to suffer from damage caused when we thrash around uncontrollably.

Ha, do not let my anti-charisma fool you into passing false judgement on me. I heal people every chance I get. When one of my neighbors gets sick or hurt, I tell them I need the practice so they don’t feel bad about recieving a free treatment. If I know someone can’t afford to pay, I don’t charge them for the visit. I love nothing more than to end the suffering of all those around me when I can. I don’t know what prompted you to think that I am uncharitable, or selfish, but you don’t really know me and if you did, you find that I am quite the contrary of your depiction. I know I have a very confrontational and insensitive style of debate, and I apologize to you if I offended you. It was not my intention to divert to my own non-divine “healing powers”, but simply to point out that epilepsy as demons is a cultural reference from the time of christ and probably an interpretation of the narrator. If it were truly demons that caused your condition, how could non-holy entities such as acupuncturists and meds control these demonic forces?
[/font]


#40

Well I assure you I am not the only person to claim this ability. If you had read a few more lines you would have read that any acupuncturist could take care of that for you. You seem to be supporting the demon theory, so why not have a priest exorcise the demon?..if i ask Bob Clarke, L.Ac., an acupuncturist at the Open Gate Acupuncture & Herbal Medicine Clinic in Eugene, Oregon, he won’t say what you said. in fact he’ll say, “Acupuncture can be quite useful for epilepsy, depending upon the type and extent of a person’s epilepsy. Acupuncture targets the cause of an illness, although it may take some time for the effects to be felt. People who expect a quick fix will be disappointed. Those who stick with the treatment, though, have a better chance for success.” [emphasis mine]
now, that doesn’t sound at all like, ‘i can stop a seizure at any time’, does it? rather it does sound a lot like what my dr says. therefore, given your claim, i expected you had a power beyond what acupuncture claims.

and i never said, nor entertained the thought, that demons had anything to do with my condition, i’m not like the child in matt you refer to. if i were possessed, then i would benefit from an exorcism, but i ain’t, so i wouldn’t.

when J cures blindness or lameness, He never tells them to leave. why then would He talk to the demons He drives out? and why would they, if they were also just illnesses, talk back to Him? what would be His point in perpetuating such a gross misunderstanding of His disciples?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.