Savation/obedience?


#1

One of the sticklers between main stream Catholics and Protestants, especially Protestants that focus on God’s Grace and the freedom from sin. Is the possible loss of salvation (Catholic view) and the impossibility of loss of salvation, (Grace focused Protestant view). I believe the Grace part has to be mentioned because there is a substantial part of Protestant that is “hell fire and brimstone peaching” that most of the time doesn’t seem to magnify the Grace.

Ether way, it is essential to know if it is true that one can loss salvation or one cannot loss salvation. And in most cases, in discussions, debates and otherwise, obedience is ether the cause for one result or the other depending on the view.

If our obedience can’t get us salvation, then how is it that our obedience can keep salvation? If something doesn’t have the power to get something, then how is it that something has the power to keep it, or not loss it?


#2

It dosen't.

God saves. It is Gods grace that does the saving. Eternal life is entering into the life of the only one who is eternal...............that is not something that can be grasped by us mortals who are dust. It's Gods' free gift to us that permits us to enter into eternal life with Him. We are obedient and active in our spiritual life (praying, doing good works and such) because we are living out the truth of our end.....we are made for Him, to enter into Him and therefore ....like Him.....have to pour ourselves out in love.

This is applicable to your state in life. For instance.....if you are mentally handicapped and incapable to do X.....through no fault of your own.....but particpate with Gods grace with what you have (the knowledge, know how, physical ability) to your state in life.........than that is more than sufficient to "work" with Gods grace.

We are ALL called to be great saints and to strive in life for holiness and we can ALL do this to a heroic degree.......and should!

God bless


#3

[quote="MichaelHowling, post:2, topic:318093"]
It dosen't.

God saves. It is Gods grace that does the saving. Eternal life is entering into the life of the only one who is eternal...............that is not something that can be grasped by us mortals who are dust. It's Gods' free gift to us that permits us to enter into eternal life with Him. We are obedient and active in our spiritual life (praying, doing good works and such) because we are living out the truth of our end.....we are made for Him, to enter into Him and therefore ....like Him.....have to pour ourselves out in love.

This is applicable to your state in life. For instance.....if you are mentally handicapped and incapable to do X.....through no fault of your own.....but particpate with Gods grace with what you have (the knowledge, know how, physical ability) to your state in life.........than that is more than sufficient to "work" with Gods grace.

We are ALL called to be great saints and to strive in life for holiness and we can ALL do this to a heroic degree.......and should!

God bless

[/quote]

It seems your not aware or any Catholic teaching that purports that obedience is required to maintain salvation, once salvation is received.


#4

[quote="D_Martin, post:3, topic:318093"]
It seems your not aware or any Catholic teaching that purports that obedience is required to maintain salvation, once salvation is received.

[/quote]

Well, here is St. Paul describing the outcome of a disobedient person: "For this you know, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

He does not say that this refers only to those who were never Christians, but anyone, no matter what they may have believed in the past.

We were not made Catholic just to get into heaven. We were chosen and baptized by the Church to be witnesses, to be evidence, of the reality of Christ. We were set apart to be a different people in whom the world would see justice, love, mercy being real in the world. Protestants have theoretical participation in God's holiness; Catholics know they are actually participating in his holiness.

John Martin


#5

Man has not the power to be good (for man shares in God’s goodness, given that only God is) and yet man has the power by his free will to do good or not do good.

Obedience in itself cannot keep salvation, though. Salvation is kept by faith is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) - not by dead faith devoid of charity (fides informis).

The word justification (justificatio, from justum facere), which derives its name from justice (justitia), denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God’s preventing and helping grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans). Considered as a state or habit (habitus justificationis), it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace.

According to Luther and Calvin, the faith that justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in God’s revealed truths and promises (fides theoretica, dogmatica), but is the infallible conviction (fides fiducialis, fiducia) that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before: “Through the obedience of Christ by faith the just are so declared and reputed, although by reason of their corrupt nature they still are and remain, sinners as long as they bear this mortal body.” Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two. In a man who is at once sinful and just, half holy and half unholy, we cannot possibly recognize a masterpiece of God’s omnipotence, but only a wretched caricature, the deformity of which is exaggerated all the more by the violent introduction of the justice of Christ.

According to the teaching of the Catholic Church the righteousness and sanctity which justification confers, although given to us by God as efficient cause (causa efficiens) and merited by Christ as meritorious cause (causa meritoria), become an interior sanctifying quality or formal cause (causa formalis) in the soul itself, which it makes truly just and holy in the sight of God.

The first and most important place in the process of justification (processus justificationis) is given to faith, which is styled “the beginning, foundation and root of all justification”. The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The same process of justification is repeated in those who by mortal sin have lost their baptismal innocence; with this modification, however, that the Sacrament of Penance replaces baptism. Since our Divine adoption and friendship with God is based on perfect love of God or charity, dead faith devoid of charity (fides informis) cannot possess any justifying power. Only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man. The essence of active justification comprises not only forgiveness of sin, but also “sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts”.


#6

[quote="D_Martin, post:1, topic:318093"]
Ether way, it is essential to know if it is true that one can loss salvation

[/quote]

It is true that one can lose salvation.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

"The seed is God's word. ...] Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." (Lk 8:12-14)

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. ...]I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers ...] If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love." (John 15: 1-10)

"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown." (Rev 3:11)

"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I chastise my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." (1 Cor. 9:24-27)

"They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off." (Rom. 11:20-23)

"our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed." (Rom 13:11)

"For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; because he that judges me is the Lord." (1 Cor. 4:4)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers ...] will inherit the kingdom of God. ...] But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. ...] Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! ...] Flee from sexual immorality." (1 Cor 6:9-18)

"Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters ...] We should not commit sexual immorality ...] We should not test Christ ...] And do not grumble ...] These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us ...] So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!" (1 Cor 10:6-13)

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)

" But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" (Gal. 1:8-9)

"But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? ...] For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace." (Gal 4:9 - 5:4)

"Therefore, my dear friends ...] continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12)

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:8-9)

"The elder to the elect lady and her children ...] I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. ...] Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward." (2 John :1-9)

"Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. ...] I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:3-9)


#7

In the same way that a drowning man can’t be saved without a savior throwing a life preserver-but still can’t be saved unless he reaches out and grabs it. To paraphrase Augustine: The God who created you without your consent won’t violate your will to save you without your consent.


#8

[quote="John_Martin, post:4, topic:318093"]
Well, here is St. Paul describing the outcome of a disobedient person: "For this you know, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

He does not say that this refers only to those who were never Christians, but anyone, no matter what they may have believed in the past.

[/quote]

Yes, but why would some one seek to fornicate, seek to be unclean, or covetous, or an idolater?

(the scripture qouted is Eph:5:5 should anyone want to know)


#9

[quote="D_Martin, post:8, topic:318093"]
Yes, but why would some one seek to fornicate, seek to be unclean, or covetous, or an idolater?

[/quote]

Because it feels good, unfortunately. I would not do it - by God's grace - because my heart is set on the heavenly things, but that does not remove my concupiscence to lust, nor the temptations...and idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship, for man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be "divinities", demons, power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc.

Christians are *especially *tempted by Satan, because in us dwells Christ (Galatians 2:20, etc.) and in seeing us, the demons rage and want to snatch us to damnation (1 Peter 5:8, Revelation 12:17) out of sheer hatred.

The Christian way of life is one of mortification, of self-mastery. A way of the Cross. A Christian is called to reflect Christ, who "was despised and rejected--a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief". Those things don't feel good. No. The cup of sorrows that we are called to drink is bitter indeed, the mockery and disbelief hurtful, the scourge painful, the crown of thorns cruel, the crucifixion terrible, death despicable. But self-sacrifice is our vocation, and Christ tells us that He does not condemn us, but rather we can condemn ourselves, for "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me - says the Lord - is not worthy of me" and "no one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God".

Salvation can indeed be lost.

And if mankind knew how much the self-imposed damnation of even one soul hurts the Lord, and how merciful and self-giving He is towards even the most hardened sinner, unrepentant sinners - especially baptized ones - would turn to Him with all their hearts, and those in a state of grace would offer many sacrifices to plead for the salvation of souls.


#10

R_C

That’s all very interesting, but isn’t it true that the out come is a result of our consumption of what God has set within or reach? Whether it be the knowledge of good and evil via the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or the Kingdom of Heaven (Mt:4:17) via the fruit of the Tree of Life (Jn:6:49-51).

Are we so stupid to think we can undo what the Lord are God has done? Isn’t this flesh we walk in today, the place of sin? Then where is the place of Righteousness? This flesh can not be the place of because the two cannot co exist in the same place. The place of Righteousness is where salvation is, and how can it be the same place as the place of sin?


#11

[quote="fhansen, post:7, topic:318093"]
In the same way that a drowning man can't be saved without a savior throwing a life preserver-but still can't be saved unless he reaches out and grabs it. To paraphrase Augustine: The God who created you without your consent won't violate your will to save you without your consent.

[/quote]

Receiving Salvation is one thing and the loss of what is received is another. And if you can loss it, then did you really have it at all in the first place?


#12

The outcome (meaning admission to the Beatific Vision after death) is a result of our decisions as to whether or not we reach for the graces that God sets within our reach. It is a result of whether we do the will of the Father or not. It is a result of whether or not we love God with all our heart and our neighbor like ourselves. It is a result of every word we say. It is a result of how we treat the poor, the sick, the unclothed, the prisoners, the persecuted. It is a result of whether we put Christ above all else and give up self, even at the price of tribulation and yes, even death.

If we do not do these things, we can undo what the Lord our God has done, and condemn ourselves to death. The place of righteousness is our soul, which comes to life when we receive Baptism, and which dies - yes, dies - when we commit what orthodox Christian doctrine calls a mortal sin, meaning one of the sins (as the evangelist John teaches us) that lead to death - not physical, of course, but spiritual.

It is true that righteousness and sinfulness cannot coexist. This is why grave sin done with full knowledge and deliberate consent suffices to remove righteousness. What then? Shall we believe that a baptized soul cannot sin gravely? That would contradict - as I tried to show you - both what Christ Himself taught and what His holy Apostles taught under the light of the Holy Spirit!

In all sincerity, there is one doctrine which is consistent throughout the centuries, and all the while many novelties that have come into existence ever since the days of the Apostles. Why, Paul already admonishes and warns the Church about such "Christian" communities that preached a different Gospel, warning them to hold on to the tradition passed down whether in writing or by word of mouth (catechism), and it was the third bishop of Rome, disciple of Peter, who wrote in the year 90 AD:

teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. From this previously-existing and most true Church, it is very clear that these later [errors], and others which have come into being since then, are counterfeit and novel inventions.

Look, everyone is free to do as they please. Christ does not impose Himself. It is a most enticing idea that all it takes is to believe really hard that I am saved in order to be saved. Sure, sounds good. I no longer fear damnation, or hell. Never mind that Scripture and Christ Himself teach otherwise. Never mind that all the greatest Christians we know of (beginning by the Church Fathers and Church Doctors and going down through the martyrs and saints) teach us very clearly throughout the centuries that it doesn't work that way. Never mind the countless times that our Lord has appeared to His disciples ever since Emmaus until this very century, asking them to share in a bit of his sorrows in order to obtain mercy and grace for unrepentant sinners, whose repentance He who is God asks with such intensity, giving them such graces that astonish even the sweetest of all parents, and yet sees them, especially those who are His brothers by baptism, reject them all and condemn themselves to eternal damnation. Never mind!

Last year, someone handed me a card that reads as follows: "This gift card is a reminder to me that I have received the gift of eternal life which was paid for with the life of God's Son. I couldn't earn it on my own, but God thought I was so worth it that He gave it to me as a gift." Some other pamphlets I find around read: "Can you say this prayer? If you are sincere, God will immediately save you and give you everlasting life. ...] I am now placing my trust in You alone for my salvation and I accept your free gift of eternal life."

How sad will the day be for those brothers who, having been deceived by such nonsense, will not strive to live the Christian life as it is meant to be lived - with the faith formed by charity that becomes the formal cause of our own salvation (along with the efficient and meritory causes that are God's free gift) - and thus realize on the day of their personal judgment that it is true, God had indeed freely given them eternal life (given by God, merited by Christ) but that the place where we spend that eternal life depended on our own work, on how we ran the race...for "those who have done what is good will rise to the resurrection that leads to life, and those who have practiced what is evil will rise to the resurrection that ends in condemnation", "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

Those who have seen that horrible lake of fire by God's grace have told us how terrible is the cry of the damned, unable to love God, a cry of hatred towards themselves for their vanity and lack of mortification, a cry of hatred towards their parents for not teaching them about Christ, about how to attain salvation, about Hell, a cry of hatred towards Christians, that they may be snatched and brought into damnation with them, a cry of hatred towards Christ, who being God lowered Himself to become man and now is so humble as to obey to the call of His consecrated ones to bless, forgive sins, and be present in the Eucharist, that Christ who begs sinners to return to Him rather than - as they wish - immediately sending them unto damnation as it was done for the fallen angels. Such is the hatred for that Christ who so loved the world as to take penance and death upon His own shoulders so that those who turn their eyes to Him can - as St. Paul writes in Philippians 2:12 - work out their own salvation with fear. Not servile fear, nor fear of damnation...but the fear of the bride that longs to see the bridegroom and looks for Him and is afraid of not seeing Him, of being separated from Him...


#13

What then? Shall we contradict Paul and cross our arms and assume that salvation cannot be lost, that is, that salvation is imposed on us? Shall we thus blaspheme Christ, who begged the Father three times to spare Him the Passion, asking: "Dad, everything is possible for you. Please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine." If salvation could be thus imposed, why would Christ have undergone such sorrow? Why would Christ have asked us to take up our Cross and follow Him?

There is another aspect to be considered. That of the grace of perseverance. The Church does teach that to those who strive to do God's will and "run the race as to win", Christ does grant a special grace, such that it would be against the true Gospel to affirm that we can persevere without a special help of God. Thus, we are neither alone in working out our salvation, nor can we ultimately win the race by our own strength. The power of perseverance is neither in the human will alone nor in God's grace solely, but in the combination of both: Divine grace aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine grace. Theologians identify this special help with the sum total of actual graces vouchsafed to man.

Oh, the depth of orthodox Christian teaching treasured in the grand library of the Magisterium...why so many of your children don't go there where truth dwells, but rather follow any teaching that seems more fit to their own self? You did tell your Apostles: "those who reject you, reject me." But did you expect proud men to rise and self-proclaim themselves apostles without being so? Yes, for you warned us that false prophets and even false Christs would arise. Please, then, give light to all your children to find refuge in your new Jerusalem, the City on the Hill, where none may touch them.


#14

[quote="D_Martin, post:11, topic:318093"]
Receiving Salvation is one thing and the loss of what is received is another. And if you can loss it, then did you really have it at all in the first place?

[/quote]

Justification is one thing, salvation another. We can lose justification, but salvation is attained only after death. In this life, those in a state of grace can call themselves justified, but not saved. Only the souls in purgatory and heaven can call themselves saved, and only the souls in hell can call themselves damned.


#15

R_C

I’m sorry but he who thinks he can undo what God has done, thinks himself more powerful then God. Satan thinks himself able to undo what God has done. And seeks to set himself higher then God Almighty. And isn’t it by the power of sin that Satan seeks to undo? And isn’t it true that you say that by the power of sin, you can undo what God has done? How is it you think to do the same? You cannot condemn what God has not condemned. This I can tell you though, he who condemns, is condemned and believes in the power of condemnation, and doesn’t believe in the Power of God’s Salvation. Jesus showed John that He has the keys to the gate of hell in His hand. Therefore no one goes to hell unless Jesus says so first. If Jesus doesn’t condemn, then who is anyone to appose that which the Lord Jesus Christ does? Have a nice day there R_C.

1Cor:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is the Judgement of works according to Paul, no condition for salvation here, only the result of the works


#16

[quote="D_Martin, post:15, topic:318093"]
R_C

I’m sorry but he who thinks he can undo what God has done, thinks himself more powerful then God. Satan thinks himself able to undo what God has done. And seeks to set himself higher then God Almighty. And isn’t it by the power of sin that Satan seeks to undo? And isn’t it true that you say that by the power of sin, you can undo what God has done? How is it you think to do the same? You cannot condemn what God has not condemned. This I can tell you though, he who condemns, is condemned and believes in the power of condemnation, and doesn’t believe in the Power of God’s Salvation. Jesus showed John that He has the keys to the gate of hell in His hand. Therefore no one goes to hell unless Jesus says so first. If Jesus doesn’t condemn, then who is anyone to appose that which the Lord Jesus Christ does? Have a nice day there R_C.

[/quote]

I am sorry as well, but your understanding simply holds on erroneous premises. It is not that we can undo God's works, but that God's work is not to impose salvation on men. Obviously I wasted my time (not that it is worth much) in posting quotes from Christ, s. Paul, s. Peter, s. John, s. James and s. Jude showing that man can condemn himself.

I am in fact equally surprised - almost upset, to be honest with you - than in attempting to dismiss my argument (which is not mine, but that of the apostles) you tell me such things as "no one goes to hell unless Jesus says so first", for the core of the evangelic message is that Jesus received all judgment from the Father and made sure to tell us that he neither judges nor condemns anyone! Rather, He teaches very clearly that it is men who judge and condemn themselves, and in different ways: by preferring darkness to light, by turning their back on him, by not performing words of mercy, by judging others without charity, et cetera.

Christ does not judge or condemn. Equally, Christ does not impose salvation on anyone. He has merited salvation for each and everyone of us but at the same time it is totally up to us to work out our salvation. Not that anyone can ultimately attain salvation without God's special help, but that nobody is damned unless he freely chooses so - and how many do so...how many, and especially amidst the baptized, who are not shielded by invincible ignorance...


#17

[quote="D_Martin, post:11, topic:318093"]
Receiving Salvation is one thing and the loss of what is received is another. And if you can loss it, then did you really have it at all in the first place?

[/quote]

Well, we don't even know if we have it with 100% certainty until the Just Judge tells us so. But in any case scripture informs us in many ways about the possibility of tasting of the divine gift, then losing it by refusing to continue to live in the Spirit. And even at our initial justification our wills are involved:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42


#18

[quote="D_Martin, post:10, topic:318093"]

Are we so stupid to think we can undo what the Lord are God has done? Isn’t this flesh we walk in today, the place of sin? Then where is the place of Righteousness? This flesh can not be the place of because the two cannot co exist in the same place. The place of Righteousness is where salvation is, and how can it be the same place as the place of sin?

[/quote]

You call yourself a "Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ". Well, listen to him:
14For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Now ask your Lord, "If you have saved me, why do you then say I will not be forgiven if I do not forgive others? You have already forgiven me, you can't take that back can you, even if I do not forgive others?"

Your salvation is that you are baptized, accepted to walk with Jesus among his People. Your sanctification that brings you into his glorified presence is that you grow in grace and holiness so that you will be able to bear to see his goodness without looking away.

John Martin


#19

[quote="D_Martin, post:15, topic:318093"]

I’m sorry but he who thinks he can undo what God has done, thinks himself more powerful then God. Satan thinks himself able to undo what God has done. And seeks to set himself higher then God Almighty. And isn’t it by the power of sin that Satan seeks to undo?

[/quote]

There are a few problems with this statement. One is that God has not finished yet, so it is not a matter of "undoing".

Second, God did not create us to be puppets on a Divine string. He created us out of love for relationship. The dignity in which we are made glorifies God. It does not place us "over"him. We are a reflection o fHis majesty. He called human beings "good" when He created us in his own image and likeness.

[quote="D_Martin, post:61, topic:317485"]
And isn’t it true that you say that by the power of sin, you can undo what God has done?

[/quote]

No. We say that His work in us is not "done" during this lifetime, and we say that the nature of sin has not changed, though the Reformers wished to perpetrate as such.

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever.

Sin separates us from God. Slaves to sin do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

[quote="D_Martin, post:61, topic:317485"]

How is it you think to do the same? You cannot condemn what God has not condemned.

[/quote]

Matt 12:36-38
I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

The sins we commit condemn us. The wages of sin is death.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.

You have made many judgmental and condemnatory accusations about Catholics since you came to CAF. What does Jesus say the fruit will be?

[quote="D_Martin, post:61, topic:317485"]

'This I can tell you though, he who condemns, is condemned and believes in the power of condemnation, and doesn’t believe in the Power of God’s Salvation.

[/quote]

Jesus showed John that He has the keys to the gate of hell in His hand. Therefore no one goes to hell unless Jesus says so first. If Jesus doesn’t condemn, then who is anyone to appose that which the Lord Jesus Christ does?

We are all born into the world condemned because we suffer the consequences of the Fall.

Mark 16:16
6 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Jesus is opposed to sin, and nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

[quote="D_Martin, post:61, topic:317485"]
Jesus 1Cor:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is the Judgement of works according to Paul, no condition for salvation here, only the result of the works

[/quote]

Yes, this is Catholic. It is a description of purgatory, which is only available to the saved. :thumbsup:


#20

[quote="D_Martin, post:11, topic:318093"]
Receiving Salvation is one thing and the loss of what is received is another. And if you can loss it, then did you really have it at all in the first place?

[/quote]

Nope ..

This is not c/w sacred scripture & life experience. We can't live in the past ...says Paul, and we can't presume to know our futures. We can only exist in the present, and if at this present moment, we are confessed of all mortal sins & following the Lord's desire for us ( being 'In Christos' ) ......then we are in living in God's will, and Kingdom children. As Christ teaches ....we all can choose to remain with him, or to leave & return back to another master. Re: the Eucharist in John Chp. 6 ....some disciplines left, the 12 determined to remain.


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