SAY the BLACK and DO the RED! Why is that so hard?


#1

I don’t expect a lot on Sunday morning. It’s OK with me if the priest is a lousy orator. I don’t mind if the choir sings badly. I can put up with a Sanctuary that looks more like a Rotary Club meeting hall than a House of God.

But I DO expect to hear a Catholic Mass. The very same Mass that I find printed in my pew misalette (even the dreadful ones produced by my hometown Oregon Catholic Press).

I come to hear a Catholic Mass, celebrated in the manner that the Church proscribes. I expect the priest and congregation to “say the black” (the words, traditionally printed in black, which are meant to be spoken) and “do the red” (the words, traditionally printed in red, sometimes called rubrics, which describe conduct). This is my RIGHT as a Catholic layman. I have a RIGHT to the Catholic Sacraments, celebrated in the manner that the Catholic Church proscribes.

I don’t come to hear someone else’s personal idea of what the Mass OUGHT to be. This person (be he priest or layman) is DEPRIVING me of my most fundamental RIGHT as a Catholic layman – this person is depriving me of the authentic celebration of the Mass.

Why is this such a problem? Why is it so hard to Say the Black and Do the Red? Why?


#2

I agree with you. Do you mind if I send a copy of your post to my Diocesan newspaper?

Our pastor was removed a couple months ago and since then our parish has had a different visiting priest each week and each one improvises to one extent or another on what are supposed to be the fixed parts of the Mass, one, who certainly should have known better, even messed with the words of consecration, though not so much as to make the consecration invalid, I think. I am sure they are well-intentioned but what they are doing is distracting, down-right confusing at times, and of course illicit.


#3

[quote=Todd Easton]I agree with you. Do you mind if I send a copy of your post to my Diocesan newspaper?
[/quote]

Sure, but I doubt you will accomplish much. But maybe even a little is a gain. FWIW, the Parish I attend suffers from NONE of the problems I mention, but I must drive right past FOUR other parishes in order to attend Mass there. IMHO, I ought to be able to visit my NEAREST Catholic Church and AT LEAST hear a Catholic Mass. The other stuff, I don’t care about, but at least give me a Catholic Mass, as I have a RIGHT to hear (not someone’s own idea of what a Catholic Mass* ought to be*).


#4

[quote=DavidFilmer]I come to hear a Catholic Mass, celebrated in the manner that the Church proscribes. I expect the priest and congregation to “say the black” (the words, traditionally printed in black, which are meant to be spoken) and “do the red” (the words, traditionally printed in red, sometimes called rubrics, which describe conduct). This is my RIGHT as a Catholic layman. I have a RIGHT to the Catholic Sacraments, celebrated in the manner that the Catholic Church proscribes.

Why is this such a problem? Why is it so hard to Say the Black and Do the Red? Why?
[/quote]

Oh! I SO agree with you! Why is it so hard? Why? Apparantly because too many of our priests seem to think that the Mass belongs to them, personally, and whatever they do must be right!

There are so few priests that I have come across that do it right - among them, my own brother, and all Opus Dei priests I have met. I can relax and worship God at their Masses, as I do not have to wonder what foolishness will take place!


#5

[quote=DavidFilmer]But I DO expect to hear a Catholic Mass. The very same Mass that I find printed in my pew misalette (even the dreadful ones produced by my hometown Oregon Catholic Press).

[/quote]

Ah, see, here i was thinking i was alone in finding the catholic churches of oregon to be somewhat… ah… lacking in discipline.

My opinion: the vatican hires teams of people extremely versed in the order (rubrics, words, etc) of the mass and have them pay visits to mass at the churches and cathedrals (incognito) to observe the priest. The person could then report back to the bishop about improper priests and back to the vatican about slack bishops. Just a thought.


#6

As Pope John Paul II stated in his last document, priests who change the liturgy do indeed cause scandal among the faithful.

After dealing with the issue before on a personal level, I have resigned myself and encourage others that are scandalized as well to a three step process:

  1. I pray “extra-hard” and certainly “more often” for the priest(s) in question.

  2. I discuss my pastoral concern with the priest, asking for a “basic” easy to follow mass. If you have children, you can use them in the effort by saying you are having a difficult time teaching your kids about the mass since it never follows the missal and they are confused as well. Hence, you do not know what to tell them.

  3. Follow up later with an thorough understanding of what the GIRM actually requires, and with the exceptions, and of course, the “black and red.” You shouldn’t nit pick every little thing, but pick the biggest such as changing the words of consecration. Be ready to follow up to the Bishop, and even the Holy See.

All should be done in charity and respect. Be aware, the moment you bring up a liturgical issue with a priest, most of the abusers who do so willingly, will become defensive. In fact, they may even go on the offensive. But remember, as the Pope and the Church have taught, you are not asking for something special or different. It is your basic right as a Catholic to have an authentic Mass. The Mass is summit of our worship. Remain charitable and respectful, always. Remember number 1 above- always.

You may be surprised by the results.

Peace,

MilesJeus


#7

[quote=DavidFilmer]Sure, but I doubt you will accomplish much. But maybe even a little is a gain. FWIW, the Parish I attend suffers from NONE of the problems I mention, but I must drive right past FOUR other parishes in order to attend Mass there. IMHO, I ought to be able to visit my NEAREST Catholic Church and AT LEAST hear a Catholic Mass. The other stuff, I don’t care about, but at least give me a Catholic Mass, as I have a RIGHT to hear (not someone’s own idea of what a Catholic Mass* ought to be*).
[/quote]

David, what parish do you attend that has the Mass done properly? jlw (a fellow Oregonian) who is on this site also drives a long way to attend mass because the closest parishes are not totally orthodox. I don’t blame you for wanting to attend a Catholic mass. It’s not supposed to be improv theater.

Lisa N


#8

I take comfort in the fact that out of the six world areas (Africa, Asia, Europe, North America, Latin America, and Oceania), the only area with fewer Catholics than North America is Oceania.

We are not normative, thanks be to God.


#9

[quote=DavidFilmer]…I come to hear a Catholic Mass, celebrated in the manner that the Church proscribes… I have a RIGHT to the Catholic Sacraments, celebrated in the manner that the Catholic Church proscribes…
[/quote]

I think you mean prescribes. With this understanding, I sympathize with you.


#10

What a coincidence. Our pastor (who has his own abuses, but changing words is not one of them), is on vacation. We have had several retired or otherwise available priests filling in.
Yesterday was the worst. The priest left out required prayers and changed the wording of others. Fortunately, the consecration was valid.
The only priests who follow all of the rubrics faithfully are a couple of retired Jesuits (late 70’s to mid 80’s).
I’ve gone the respectful correction, letter to priest, letter to bishop route to absolutely no effect. :banghead:
PRAY!


#11

Can you guys help me out with this one.

Why does there seem to be such a reluctance to discuss these issues with the Priest?

If he is changing the words of consecration or adding things to Eucharistic liturgy, aren’t we supposed to say something?

Thanks,

MilesJesu


#12

[quote=MilesJesu]As Pope John Paul II stated in his last document, priests who change the liturgy do indeed cause scandal among the faithful.

After dealing with the issue before on a personal level, I have resigned myself and encourage others that are scandalized as well to a three step process:

  1. I pray “extra-hard” and certainly “more often” for the priest(s) in question.

  2. I discuss my pastoral concern with the priest, asking for a “basic” easy to follow mass. If you have children, you can use them in the effort by saying you are having a difficult time teaching your kids about the mass since it never follows the missal and they are confused as well. Hence, you do not know what to tell them.

  3. Follow up later with an thorough understanding of what the GIRM actually requires, and with the exceptions, and of course, the “black and red.” You shouldn’t nit pick every little thing, but pick the biggest such as changing the words of consecration. Be ready to follow up to the Bishop, and even the Holy See.

All should be done in charity and respect. Be aware, the moment you bring up a liturgical issue with a priest, most of the abusers who do so willingly, will become defensive. In fact, they may even go on the offensive. But remember, as the Pope and the Church have taught, you are not asking for something special or different. It is your basic right as a Catholic to have an authentic Mass. The Mass is summit of our worship. Remain charitable and respectful, always. Remember number 1 above- always.

You may be surprised by the results.

Peace,

MilesJeus
[/quote]

What a great post! :clapping:


#13

[quote=Joseph Bilodeau]I think you mean prescribes. With this understanding, I sympathize with you.
[/quote]

Spell checkers can be both a blessing and a curse, when you’re not careful! You, of course, are correct (proscribe means to condemn).


#14

[quote=Lisa N]David, what parish do you attend that has the Mass done properly? jlw (a fellow Oregonian) who is on this site also drives a long way to attend mass because the closest parishes are not totally orthodox…
[/quote]

I attend St. Anthony’s Portland near 82nd/Powell (not to be confused another St. Anthony’s in nearby Tigard). It has always been very “by the book.” But we just got a new Pastor last Sunday. He seems like a good guy, but I suppose time will tell. I can provide additional information by private message channels. BTW, our former pastor, Fr. James Mayo, went to St. Michaels downtown (and he’s a by-the-book canon lawyer, so I imagine St. Michael’s will be having proper Masses, if they have not been doing so before). And I have heard that St. Henry’s in Gresham on the east side is a pretty straight parish, even though “screaming banjo Mass at St. Henry’s” was once the stereotype of liturgical abuse.

Of course, there’s always Holy Rosary near Broadway/MLK. Many would say that Holy Rosary is a bit *too *orthodox (even maybe rad trad).


#15

[quote=DavidFilmer]I attend St. Anthony’s Portland near 82nd/Powell (not to be confused another St. Anthony’s in nearby Tigard). It has always been very “by the book.” But we just got a new Pastor last Sunday. He seems like a good guy, but I suppose time will tell. I can provide additional information by private message channels. BTW, our former pastor, Fr. James Mayo, went to St. Michaels downtown (and he’s a by-the-book canon lawyer, so I imagine St. Michael’s will be having proper Masses, if they have not been doing so before). And I have heard that St. Henry’s in Gresham on the east side is a pretty straight parish, even though “screaming banjo Mass at St. Henry’s” was once the stereotype of liturgical abuse.

Of course, there’s always Holy Rosary near Broadway/MLK. Many would say that Holy Rosary is a bit *too *orthodox (even maybe rad trad).
[/quote]

Thank you for the reply. I believe jlw attends Holy Rosary and our priest occasionally does a special mass there. Interesting that Fr. Mayo went downtown. They need orthodoxy in that area.

Lisa N


#16

Are you in the diocese headed by Bishop Vasa? If so, he is wonderful, and will set the record straight.


#17

Holy Rosary in Portland is the place to go. I was in the seminary at Mount Angel and I can tell you … Holy Rosary is the place to go … by the way did I say that Holy Rosary is the place to go.


#18

Pray. Pray for our Blessed Mother to choose from our homes those needed to serve His Church.

Gently, lovingly - bring the GIRM to your Priest and discuss the Mass. Even present yourself as a student of Catholicism looking to learn more.

Go to your Bishop if necessary.

There will always be weeds. So pray some more.


#19

[quote=MilesJesu]Can you guys help me out with this one.

Why does there seem to be such a reluctance to discuss these issues with the Priest?

If he is changing the words of consecration or adding things to Eucharistic liturgy, aren’t we supposed to say something?

Thanks,

MilesJesu
[/quote]

It is our duty to say something. But with anything - use respect and love of Christ.


#20

[quote=MrS]Are you in the diocese headed by Bishop Vasa? If so, he is wonderful, and will set the record straight.
[/quote]

I believe Bishop Vasa is in the eastern part of the state (Baker City). You are right, he is a fabulous, orthodox, inspirational bishop. They are very lucky to have him.

Lisa N


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