Schoolboys punished with detention for refusing to kneel in class and pray to Allah

From here - older children/young people

Parents can choose to withdraw their child from all or part of the religious education curriculum

and here - more junior children

Schools also have to teach religious education, though parents have the right to withdraw children for all or part of the religious education curriculum.

Let’s suppose abortion should be illegal … but how are you going to accomplish that if there’s no free speech for you to argue that it should be made illegal? That’s what’s happened in Canada and some European nations … you can’t even argue for changing laws or introducing new ones or abolishing existing ones if they go against laws against “hate speech” and so forth … even academic inquiry is restricted. In many European nations, for example, it is illegal to question orthodoxy as it relates to the number of deaths in the Holocaust or to question the means that was used in effecting those deaths. Now you may not care about that but that sets a dangerous precedent for the field of history and science in general and also what if one day in Europe or elsewhere it was concluded that one could not question orthodoxy as it relates to the Inquisitions or Crusades or Indulgences? In Canada they targeted Christian preachers – including in the latest example a Catholic priest – for preaching according to their religious convictions … I feared (and I am not Catholic) that they would declare that the distribution of the Catechism would be illegal! … since the priest did little more than repeat some of the things in it. I’m sure Protestants have the same fear with respect to the Bible. It’s not as far fetched as it would seem considering that when some raised the alarm about what has already happened several years before it did, many ridiculed them.

I am not Christian but ISTM that you all should be concerned more with protecting your freedom to preach the Gospel unfettered than with protecting what you consider to be human life. If given the choice between the two, surely you would choose freedom to preach the Gospel. That shows then that it is more important under your own values than protecting human life, as important as that may also be.

But to each his own.

What about this also? For those of you who are just poo pooing this whole thing like it’s nothing. (my bold)
Last month, WND **(World Net Daily) **reported Principal Robin Lowe was reassigned after staging a mandatory lesson in Islamic religious beliefs for nearly 900 students at her Houston-area school.

Nothing wrong with learning about islamic religious beleifs. In fact, given the place Islam has in cultural and political affairs and the security of a free state, it would seem that it would be good US policy to mandate the teaching of Islam – I mean don’t you think it would be a good idea for instance for CIA analysts to know a little about Islam to do their analyses? The same is true for all American citizens since we live, for better or worse, in a democracy where we are called to participate in political life – we need to be knowledgable about Islam to evaluate well whether the policies our leaders advocate are wise.

And learning about a religion from the viewpoint of those who practice it is fine too – and is ideally one of the ways you should learn about it. Even if you are adamantly opposed to Islam and consider it your enemy – that is ALL THE MORE reason to learn about it from an adherent so that you can better understand your enemy from within his own mindset. Of course the students should also have been exposed to a more critical treatment or study of Islam – as well as Hinduism and other religions that have geo-policitical influence.

Of course people argue, they just have to be careful about “gay ate my hamster” language.

In many European nations, for example, it is illegal to question orthodoxy as it relates to the number of deaths in the Holocaust or to question the means that was used in effecting those deaths.

Because, in the countries involved, it’s not just fun conspiracy theory to play around with, it’s propaganda by the very political groups responsible for the whole morass in the first place and Germans, in particular, tend to be rather touchy on the subject of Nazis and Nazi propaganda.

What about the language of Aquinas?

newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article12

[quote=Aquinas]While the most grievous is the sin of bestiality, because use of the due species is not observed. Hence a gloss on Genesis 37:2, “He accused his brethren of a most wicked crime,” says that “they copulated with cattle.” After this comes the sin of sodomy, because use of the right sex is not observed.
[/quote]

I suspect if someone said that in Canada or in certain European nations, they would be charged with a crime. In Canada, I know, people have been brought before “human rights” tribunal for precisely this kind of thing.

In any event, your moderation of freedom of speech is disturbing in and of itself

Because, in the countries involved, it’s not just fun conspiracy theory to play around with, it’s propaganda by the very political groups responsible for the whole morass in the first place and Germans, in particular, tend to be rather touchy on the subject of Nazis and Nazi propaganda.

To the extent that Germany and other European nations and Canada and others restrict speech against the principle set forth in the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution, they have already become Nazi-esque and have engaged in the totalitarinism they are ostensibly seeking to prevent. You can’t become totalitarian to prevent totalitarianism. Are you German? I understand that Germans are sympathetic to their past judging from opinion polls which state that many Germans believe there were “good” elements in that past. That’s not surprising given the freedom of speech they do not honor.

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2829811,00.html

I love European nations and enjoy German cuisine and shnitzel, but I really think you guys should take a second look and also look at our Constitution and see if there are not good values there you would want to incorporate into your own and into new EU law. I mean no disrespect towards Europeans and wish you all the best.

I’m a European Jewess from a German/Italian Jewish background.

While one may have great admiration for the US and its citizens, sometimes the assumption that it/they knows/know best and that the US Constitution is, in some sense, a perfection in human understanding from which true judgment can be made on all human endeavor gets a bit sickly sweet for other tastes.

I’m sure you know the US was the first democracy of the modern era. Something to think about. I feel free to look at other nations for wisdom … you shouldn’t feel bad about looking to the US for wisdom either. Let’s agree to disagree, but I hope you give it a 2nd thought.

I’ve lived in the US.

The first democracy? I think that was New Zealand.

[Is a country a ‘democracy’ if half the population can’t vote?]

See where second thoughts might lead you (ie being less presumptious)?

No the first democracies were back in ancient times. That’s why I qualified it with “modern era”

[Is a country a ‘democracy’ if half the population can’t vote?]

Sure is. The word “democracy” is inherited from Greek and you as a European would know that in general much less than half could vote in the Greek city state.

See where second thoughts might lead you (ie being less presumptious)?

The freedom to think is a human right. The freedom to express thought is a human right. The freedom to desire is a human right. The freedom to express desire is a human right. That’s where second thoughts lead me. I’m sorry my language was not apt, but my intention was just to share, not to suggest your cultural traditions were inferior. I think though that many non-Americans react in an inordinately negative way to things American. Some say this is due to jealously but I don’t think it would be in all cases. I’m sure there’s a variety of causes and I’m sure that Americans are to blame partially as well for the prejudice or animosity that many in Europe have against us. I apologize for not clearly stating that I do not think all American values should be imposed on the world or that everyone should be like us. I do think though that the four freedoms I mentioned above are fundamental values that all humans have, whether they realize it or not. This is something our President has said, more or less – and on this point he is right.

The theme that I continued.

Sure is. The word “democracy” is inherited from Greek and you as a European would know that in general much less than half could vote in the Greek city state.

So, not wanting to give or receive a boring lecture on the origins of the term ‘democracy’, I kept to your ‘modern era’.

I apologize for not clearly stating that I do not think all American values should be imposed on the world or that everyone should be like us.

Most Western and Northern European countries have their own mature versions of those mature American values - just different histories and perspectives about them. They are not banana republics or Middle Eastern tyrannies.

I am a recent Muslim convert. But don’t immediately get the impression that I support these schoolboys being punished because I don’t. I believe in religious freedom and feel that these boys’ religious freedom was violated by having this happen to them. Hopefully it never happens again. Now don’t get me wrong, I am all for the educating of our children about different religions and all for the teaching of tolerance. However, I do not think that boys and girls should be forced to participate in a religious activity that goes against their own religion or personal beliefs.

Islam does not believe in religious freedom. Not only are you not allowed to preach another religion in Muslim countries but if a Muslim converts to another religion they are subject to execution. Hopefully you knew all this before you decided to convert

I did know this but I had forgotten about it. Anyway, I just want to apologize for any of my posts that have been anti-Christian or anti-Catholic. I have decided to come back to Catholicism and will be going to confession as soon as possible. Please forgive me.

You’re have not wronged me in anyway so no apologies are due. I am delighted you are returning to the church.

Well, the apology was for anyone who I have wronged. :wink: But thank you anyway and I would appreciate any prayers you can offer me. I just got back from confession so I am sin free! :smiley:

You are in my prayers.

Just wondering, are students obligated to pray Christian prayers during RE? I am wondering what the outcome would be if a muslim were told to pray the rosary or face detention?

The rosary is of course associated with the Catholic faith or the High Anglican Church so it would be unlilkely to be used outside a Catholic school here. Non-Christian pupils can opt out of Christian prayers - I went to a Catholic school but we had a very few non-Catholic pupils including one Jewish kid, the school had weekly masses for all pupils. He an and a couple of other kids were free to do what they wished for this period. The few non-Catholic kids we had generally were with us due to the reputation of the school for turning out students with high exam marks.

The law here provides that no child could be forced to pray outside their own faith. What has gone wrong with the original example is a poorly instituted roleplay where the purpose of it was not clearly explained or defined.

beat me to it:thumbsup:

This is outrageous no matter what country it is in. :mad:

Looks like the teacher has been suspended:

Teacher suspended for ‘punishing children who did not pray to Allah’

A teacher has been suspended amid claims she punished two children who refused to worship Allah during a Religious Education lesson.

Alison Phillips, head of RE at Cheshire’s respected Alsager High School, allegedly disciplined the Year 7 duo claiming they were disrespectful for refusing to kneel down and pray.

After giving the two boys detention the school was believed to have received several complaints from parents about the long-standing teacher.

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