"Science cannot lie.... It's Christianity that's the liar."

Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler’s
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. Hitler’s Secret Conversations:
1941-1944
, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay “The Mind of Adolf Hitler” by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 51, from the entry for 14 October 1941:

 Science cannot lie, for it's always striving, according to 
 the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is 
 true.  When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith.  
 It's Christianity that's the liar.  It's in perpetual conflict with 
 itself.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dallas Willard: "science says nothing. It is not the kind
of thing that can say anything. Only scientists say things…"
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407260437.2d8959da%40posting.google.com

Koster: scientific atheism is an idea whose time is gone
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406212033.90a39c1%40posting.google.com
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406230445.7cff0545%40posting.google.com

your freethought/ atheism conversion experience?
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1135012135.008700.163480%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Multi-Pronged Role of Darwinian Thought in Shoah’s Arrival
google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1132080322.482544.299440%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Hitler’s actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social Darwinist vision
groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

a claim: Hitler was a Christian
google.com/groups?selm=1131389424.486586.51840%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Churches resisted Hitler
groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128561942.412167.145530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
theological disputes among German Protestants; Nazi concentration camps for Catholics and Protestants
groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.176548.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1%40individual.net
On the Origin of Life
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1%40individual.net

Peace be with you!

And yet despite all this, people will still make the claim that Hitler was a Christian. In my experience, they base this claim on the fact that at times (and I believe all this was prior to the start of the war and concentration camps, ect.) he called himself a Christian. But look at what he was trying to do–take power in a country inhabited almost entirely by Christians (though there was certainly a significant number of Jews as well). Would Hitler not have to have their support? And what better way to get it than to play on their religious beliefs!

These people will also claim that Hitler was a Catholic because he may or may not have been baptized Catholic. But we’ll simply ignore the fact that he never once went to Mass, called Martin Luther the greatest German hero of all time, and sent millions of Catholics to the concentration camps.

In Christ,
Rand

Rand Al’Thor?

Somebody is a groupie of “The Wheel of Time” series? LOL :dancing:

p.s. I am currently on book number 6. :thumbsup:

[quote= A Hitler]Science cannot lie, for it’s always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true.
[/quote]

Well, much as I hate to admit it he does have a point. After all, if the bridge falls down or the patient dies it is kinda hard to hide it. Hey, even a genocidal warmonger can be right about something every once and a while. :wink: I’d probably use the word “factual” rather than “true” but I know nothing of translating from German.

[quote= A Hitler]When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith.
[/quote]

Whether or not it is always in good faith…well as an optimist I always like to think that people always try to do good work and there is such a thing as an honest mistake or going with what you know, the perfect being the enemy of the good and all that, but it is of course impossible to speculate on everyone’s motivations all of the time.

[quote= A Hitler] It’s Christianity that’s the liar. It’s in perpetual conflict with itself.
[/quote]

I suppose that even genocidal warmongers are entitled to their opinions. And since his region saw some of the worst ravages of the 30 Years Wars, the interfaith hatreds that still simmered centuries afterwards, and the ever multiplying Christian sects that all claim to be correct you can see where a person might get such a notion.

But like much of what Hitler said it isn’t particularly novel or interesting. After all it is pretty obvious that science by its nature deals with the tangible and measurable wile religion often has other concerns.

Science most certainly can lie. It may strive for truth, but we all know that mistakes are made, results are misread, experiments go awry, etc. At one time, science made the big breakthrough that the earth was not the center of the universe. Instead, it taught that the sun was. Not to say this wasn’t a good step in the right direction, but it wasn’t exactly the truth, either.

Mind you, I’m not trying to say that Christianity is immune to lying, either. As individuals or in great numbers, Christianity has seen their share of truth-bending. Even our Pope is capable of lying (except when speaking infallibly, of course).

Summary - both can lie, both do lie, both strive for truth - where’s the conflict?

[quote=forthright]… At one time, science made the big breakthrough that the earth was not the center of the universe. Instead, it taught that the sun was. …
[/quote]

I disagree:

Geocentricity 101: A beginner’s Course
[list]
*]Geocentricity 101, Part I: Basic Principles
*]Geocentricity 101, Part II: Basic Physics
*]Geocentricity 101, Part III: Scriptural and Church Position
*]Geocentricity 101, Supplement: Discussion of Scripture and Church Position
[/list]Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

Scientist to theologist: I’m smarter than you as I can prove scientifically I’m a fool while you can’t

Science most certainly can lie. Does anyone remember the “Piltdown Man”? Or, do you think they don’t have any biases when they are going into a study or an experiment? There is often a prevailing status quo of old boys with nice tenures and their younger apprentice lackeys who’s very careers and prestige bank on the “truth” of certain theories.

The very reason why many like to think of science as “infallible” is that they are bias free-only looking at the data and proof but they are human and subject to error, greed, bias, etc.

Only through a truly infallible teacher can you have Truth. Science is a great tool, nurtured by the Church in its early years which now has gotten out of hand. Science is only a tool, once people realize that we will all be a lot better off.

Science can only prove what can be observed…and even that is often misleading.

[quote=trth_skr]I disagree:

Geocentricity 101: A beginner’s Course
[list]
*]Geocentricity 101, Part I: Basic Principles
*]Geocentricity 101, Part II: Basic Physics
*]Geocentricity 101, Part III: Scriptural and Church Position
*]Geocentricity 101, Supplement: Discussion of Scripture and Church Position
[/list]Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
[/quote]

I’m not going to claim that I know for certain how the cosmos moves. My point was just that science once put forward as true something that it now claims as false. Either it was lying then, or it was lying now (or it was lying both times). Anyway you put it, science is capable of lying.

[quote=forthright]I… Either it was lying then, or it was lying now (or it was lying both times). …
[/quote]

So you think that going with the available information and plain old making a mistake are the same as lying? :eek:

[quote=steveandersen]So you think that going with the available information and plain old making a mistake are the same as lying? :eek:
[/quote]

I wouldn’t consider making an honest mistake a lie. If a theory is presented as an irrefutable fact, I’d consider that a lie.

Science may not lie, but scientists can.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

It’s not that science lies…it’s just so dang limited to temporal matters.

I have heard it once said by a friend of mine on a blog, “Reason (science) and faith (doctrine) cannot conflict since God is the source of both. There never was, is not now, and never can be, any contradiction.”

I tend to agree with this… Man in his imperfection can twist science. We try to base our morals based on science (IE ABORTION a HUGE ONE)

Reason and faith never can be contradicting.

Reason and faith never can be contradicting.

Pope Leo XIII spoke of this as pertaining to Holy Scripture in his encyclical Provedentissimus Deus. Also, see Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Fides et Ratio

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.