Scriptural and Scientific Proof of the Most Holy Trinity

St. John’s Gospel itself contains the glorious apostle’s his direct realization, i.e. his direct witness to the Truth of the Triune God, and his presentation of the Truth of the Triune God.

The Church has worshiped the Holy Trinity as proclaimed by St John’s witness from the beginning and throughout the centuries.

The Anaphora of St. John (Son of Thunder), written by St John the apostle and is preserved and prayed by the Ethiopian catholics to this day, extols the Glories of the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

It is no coincidence that the the Roman Catholic Church throughout the centuries concluded EVERY mass with the recitation of the “Last Gospel”, the theological, doctrinal, and scientific explanation of the Holy Trinity. I’ve included the “Last Gospel” below for your reference.

For those exhausted by the mundane heretical arguments against the Holy Catholic faith, we merely present the holy genius of St. John’s Gospel:

The Last Gospel - (St. John 1.1-14)

**In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. **

COMMENTARY:
St John explains the Word was in the beginning yet was with and was God and hence before the beginning.

What is in a man’s heart appears in his mind and the thoughts of the mind exist before revealed to others by the spoken word.

A person’s words are made manifest when spoken by the will of their “father”.

Therefore your spoken word is one and the same as you yet it is simultaneously different. Your words are conveyed by your energy, when you speak them into existence to he HEARD by others.

So anyone who doubts the Trinity will be confronted directly by their very own existence. They cannot look into the mirror and see heart and mind existing apart from their words, actions, and their impact on others.

Modern science contemplates 4 fundamentals of Time, Space, Energy, and Matter. St. John of the Cross teaches: “The Father spoke one Word, which was His Son, and this Word He always speaks in eternal silence, and in silence must It be heard by the soul” So it is very clear that the Word Logos (related to Lexis) is the All in All lexicon of God made manifest in Time, Jesus, the Word.

Please contemplate the rest of this Holy Gospel passage which clearly explains the Word cannot be heard but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit made present to us by an encounter with St John the Baptist!

and …
All things were made by Him: and without Him was made nothing that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the Light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the Light, that all men might believe through Him. He was not the Light, but was to give testimony of the Light. That was the true Light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.

He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, He gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in His name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (here all kneel) AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US, and we saw His glory, the glory as it were of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Thanks be to God.

All praises and glory be given to the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, now and forever, the God Who Is Who Was and IS TO COME at the end of the ages. Alleluia !!!

Obviously as a Catholic I believe in the Holy Trinity. I’m just curious about your comment saying there is scientific proof. You have only one sentence about science starting “Modern science…” I don’t see any scientific proof there.

@thistle - “Obviously as a Catholic I believe in the Holy Trinity. I’m just curious about your comment saying there is scientific proof. You have only one sentence about science starting “Modern science…” I don’t see any scientific proof there.”

What kind of scientific proof do you want? Perhaps you can test St. John’s science first with the scientific method and thought experiment.

1.) Form a Question

2.) Make Conjecture / Hypothesis

3.) Predict logical consequence of your Conjecture

4.) Test your prediction

5.) Present Analysis

What is your question?

Every one?
But starting when?
The doctrine of “the holy trinity” I think was not fully defined until late in the fourth century by Athanasius.

The line above is the scriptural proof for the Holy Trinity that you refer to in your subject line?

As per Thistle, are you going to post the scientific proof that you mention?

.

Since the beginning … :slight_smile: of ‘throughout the centuries’ time period I’m referring to…:smiley:

St. John’s Gospel 1st chapter is a definition and witness of the Holy Trinity. St. John’s Anaphora is also definition and witness of the Holy Trinity.

If the science of St. John’s Gospel 1st chapter is not obvious, then please see previous thread response to thistle, namely, scientific proof comes by way of scientific method.

Scientific method starts with formulation of a question.

If you or thistle ask the question, then I can answer scientifically .

I gave a simple scientific explanation. If you want more science then please present a question and I will respond. :shrug:

Saying that hypothesis A is likely true scientifically requires the use of the scientific method doesn’t actually show hypothesis A to be true in any sense. It just shows the steps necessary that need to be taken.

Me: I have the power to turn nuclear waste into delicious pizza bagels and I have proven it with science!
Someone else: But you haven’t proven it.
Me: I have. It requires the scientific method.

In the above scenario I haven’t proven anything, even though I mentioned the scientific method.

Scientific method starts with formulation of a question.

If you or thistle ask the question, then I can answer scientifically .

I gave a simple scientific explanation.

To be fair 1) you created a thread that said you’d be proving the Trinity scientifically, and 2) you have not done so.

If you want more science then please present a question and I will respond.  :shrug:

Okay, How can we prove scientifically that the Trinity exists?

And just to be clear I think most people here on CAF, believer or not, will agree with me:

  1. Just because something can’t be proven scientifically doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  2. God, the Trinity, and so forth can’t be proven scientifically.

The title of the thread is “Scriptural and Scientific Proof of the Most Holy Trinity”

It is not titled, “Scientific proof that God exists”. Non Christian apologists throughout the world deny the existence of the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Jesus with a weak attempt to use reason and bible as proof of their position.

Scriptural “proof” is presented for those who accept the Bible as an authoritative source. In this case, i.e., in the case of apologetics, Christians who interpret, postulate, reason, and debate present scriptural proof for ‘their’ hypothesis.

Most people accept God based on the conversion of the heart which itself transcends logical controversy of the human mind.

As for scientific proof of the Trinity, the question in this thread is not one of existence, but “Is God Triune”. This question presupposes that the readers / debaters agree God exists.

Therefore, the scientific proof presented by St. John the evangelist, is of logic (induction and deduction). (St. John could have used more bible references in John 1:1-2 e.g. In the beginning God said ‘let there be light’ referring to Genesis).

He presents God as Three Persons being One yet simultaneously different Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Father and the Son are presented as One in being before time. The Word, Jesus Christ, is before time:

1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

St. John presents a simple ‘scientific’ explanation of the Trinity. One that can be understood with logic. Your thoughts precede your words. When your words are manifest as sound they are part and parcel of your energy yet they are different than you. Simple.

So this thread is offered to Almighty God and to His servants and apologists as a simple way to enlighten those who reject the Most Holy Trinity. A person, cannot acknowledge their existence as one separate from their thoughts and words made manifest.

And no one can deny that the hearing and comprehension of the Truth, comes only by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

:slight_smile:

You still have not presented any scientific proof of anything.

It would have been better to just say scriptural proof. Even a broader understanding of science as simply some type of demonstration through reason alone would not apply here.

I presented a proof to “thistle”. Are you thistle?

Why?

God said ‘let there be light’ and in the beginning was the Word and God spoke the Word into time.

Its pretty clear to me St. John’s Gospel Ch 1 is scientific.

Perhaps I can start with a treatise on the proof that time exists. Does it? Should we proceed down this path, it would make sense to show by proof that in order for “Time” to exists, “Timeless-ness” (ætérnam) exists.

Specifically, the beginning of Time is what, and what precedes Time (earlier time?)

Perhaps you want a mathematical proof founded on physical theory (e.g. modern cosmology) but that still is not proof.

I’ve asked you to present a question. The question you presented related to proving the existence of God.

I further explained that this thread is a proof for those who reject the Trinity by reason using ‘scientific method’ i.e., logic.

It appears you rather I

a.) prove God exists

b.) prove that God is Triune

Is this your request? If so, how would you like me to prove this? By experimentation.? Do you want a measurement of God?

Since God, by definition, is Timeless, what do you expect in the way of scientific proof?

A scientific Treatise on Timeless-ness, Space-less-ness, Energy-less-ness and Matter-less-ness ?

Clearly it can be reasoned, by observation, that since Time exists, Time-less-ness must exist, etc. e.g. Time could not pre-exist before its beginning

:slight_smile:

The above statement itself is scientific proof of the existence of Timeless ness.

Ætérnam

This is your thread. You are here to provide scientific proof of God, or the Trinity (which is one God). Please provide us with this elusive scientific proof. So far you have not provided it. We are not here to play games with you.

In science often times answering a question involves answering a series of questions beforehand. Before people could answer the question as to when eclipses would occur we needed to first understand many things about the Earth, moon, and sun.

To scientifically prove that the Trinity exists it’s necessary to demonstrate that the three persons of God also exist. Otherwise it’s like trying to explain rainbows without an understanding of light.

Non Christian apologists throughout the world deny the existence of the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Jesus with a weak attempt to use reason and bible as proof of their position.

Scriptural “proof” is presented for those who accept the Bible as an authoritative source. In this case, i.e., in the case of apologetics, Christians who interpret, postulate, reason, and debate present scriptural proof for ‘their’ hypothesis.

Most people accept God based on the conversion of the heart which itself transcends logical controversy of the human mind.

So at least we agree that scriptural proof and scientific proof are not the same.

As for scientific proof of the Trinity, the question in this thread is not one of existence, but “Is God Triune”. This question presupposes that the readers / debaters agree God exists.

And right there is the problem. Science doesn’t presuppose the existence of something then call that hypothesis proof.

Therefore, the scientific proof presented by St. John the evangelist, is of logic (induction and deduction). (St. John could have used more bible references in John 1:1-2 e.g. In the beginning God said ‘let there be light’ referring to Genesis).

He presents God as Three Persons being One yet simultaneously different Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Father and the Son are presented as One in being before time. The Word, Jesus Christ, is before time:

1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

In Matthew 7:26 Jesus warns of a man who build a house on sand. You can’t just assume something is true from the very start, make a few pronouncements, perform no science, and then call it scientific proof.

Again let me stress that just because God and the Trinity can’t be proven scientifically doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but we need to be honest as to what passes muster via the scientific method and what doesn’t.

St. John presents a simple ‘scientific’ explanation of the Trinity. One that can be understood with logic. Your thoughts precede your words. When your words are manifest as sound they are part and parcel of your energy yet they are different than you. Simple.

I light the quotes around the word “scientific” where you do show that it’s not really scientific. It’s the same way that I’m considered “handsome” :stuck_out_tongue:

So this thread is offered to Almighty God and to His servants and apologists as a simple way to enlighten those who reject the Most Holy Trinity. A person, cannot acknowledge their existence as one separate from their thoughts and words made manifest.

And no one can deny that the hearing and comprehension of the Truth, comes only by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

:slight_smile:

If you want to use this thread as a biblical reference for those believe in Christ that the Trinity is true, that’s ok; but to say something has been scientifically proven you have to demonstrate that and not merely asserted (repeatedly and without a whiff of science).

Matthew 18:19 says, “Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.”

For scientific proof, gather two Christian amputees together, and have them ask for something that is easily observed. Perhaps, “Lord, if you are a Trinity then regrow John’s amputated limbs, but if you are not a Trinity then regrow Mary’s amputated limbs.”

Scientists can easily observe the regrowth of limbs, and which limbs regrew would indicate whether the God of the Bible was a Trinity or not.

rossum

I explained my use of the word ‘Scientific’. Obviously you disagree with my use of the word ‘Scientific’. I then proposed, that you present a question. I did so not for the purpose of playing a game, but for the purpose of determining what ‘science’ to use to convince you.

For example, some people believe Psychology is a science, and others do not.

Atheists object to God’s simple explanation of creation in the book of Genesis.

Believers reason that God would not deliver the book of Genesis as mathematical treatise of the creation as quantum hologram projected into time by His Will His Energy. Rather, He would tell us He loves us in way that is easy for all His children to understand.

My science questions for you are: Is your spoken word you?

Do the words you speak (or write) come from the thoughts of your mind?

Are your words made manifest in time via your energy?

Do you think the above questions qualify as suitable scientific method questions?

I say the questions above do in fact, qualify as reasonable questions for scientific inquiry.

Why do you object?

Thank you and have a nice day.

Except if that occurred, atheists would simply sniff, “So what? Salamanders do that too. Naturally”.

animals.howstuffworks.com/amphibians/salamander-regrow-body-parts1.htm

Is this a bait and switch?

It certainly sounds like, from the thread title, you’re going to offer “Scientific proof” of the existence of the Trinity.

But I haven’t seen that “Scientific proof” yet.

Are you going to offer it now? :confused:

Even atheists know that humans are not salamanders. Dolphins can hold their breath for hours. Birds and butterflies can fly under their own power. Animals can naturally do things that humans cannot, and vice versa.

The Bible makes a statement. That statement is testable. Testing statements is something science is very good at.

rossum

LOL!

True, true…

But surely you’re not saying that if a human were to grow a limb, the predictable response of a non-believer would be to say: we have examples of this happening in nature all the time!

Right?

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