scripture question


#1

This quote from the CCC baffles me. When I was growing up I was always told that Jesus revoked the old covenant at his crucifixion. It does not make sense as to how 2 separate covenants can exist. I don't understand this paragraph.

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121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.


#2

I will give you what I think is the answer.

Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the old but to fulfill it.

When reading the old testament, we read it light of it pointing to the new testament, Jesus, who fulfilled it's prophesies, especially about the messiah who was to save mankind from their sins.

However many of the cultural and religious laws of the old no longer bind us, such as circumcision, kosher foods, religious practices of purification, sabboth laws, and so on.

However the laws contained in the ten commandments do still hold because these can be found in the New testament in one form or another; adultery, theft, lieing, drunkenness, etc.

The new covenant replaces the old covenant, as it says in the new testament in several places, which I think is in St. Paul's letters. Meaning that Baptism replaces circumcision, the priesthood of Jesus replaces the priesthood of the old, Sunday when Jesus rose from the dead replaces the old Sabboth, and so on.

Just a few thoughts.


#3

New International Version (©1984)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

American King James Version
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

American Standard Version
Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Darby Bible Translation
Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

English Revised Version
Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.

Webster's Bible Translation
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Weymouth New Testament
"Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.

World English Bible
"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Young's Literal Translation
'Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;


#4

[quote="a83192, post:1, topic:295036"]
This quote from the CCC baffles me. When I was growing up I was always told that Jesus revoked the old covenant at his crucifixion. It does not make sense as to how 2 separate covenants can exist. I don't understand this paragraph.

===========================================================

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

[/quote]

The Old Testament is the written Word of God. The Old Covenant are those things that were necessary for salvation prior to Jesus's instituting the New Covenant. The Old Covenant has been superceded by the New Covenent. The Old Covenant is no longer a valid means of salvation. This is why the Jews need to be baptised and confess the Catholic Faith in order to obtain salvation. JPII on more than one ocassion denied this teaching of the Church. JPII speaks material heresy when he says the Old Covenant has never been revoked. The CCC is clearly wrong. Whether JPII fell into fromal heresy is for God to judge and not me. I don't read the CCC to learn the Catholic Faith. I learn the Catholic Faith from sources that are in perfect harmony with what the Church held at all times and all places with the same sense. The modernists are running the Church. There teachings seem more like stuff that one would expect to come out of the Lodge of the Freemasons.

If one understands the doctrine of infallibility and indefectability one need not be scandalized by what I said. The Church is indeed infallible. The Church is indeed indefectible. Papal primacy is a true doctrine of our faith. We need to be subject to the pope. However, if the pope contradicts the faith, or pretends to validly promulgate laws which change the form of Sacraments, or commits crimes like assisi or utters blashpemies like the Holy Spirit is fostering heretical and schismatic churches then that is on him.

We on the other hand, hold fast to the faith, attend the true worship, obey the pope in all things lawful.


#5

[quote="legis225, post:3, topic:295036"]
New International Version (©1984)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

American King James Version
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

American Standard Version
Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Darby Bible Translation
Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

English Revised Version
Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.

Webster's Bible Translation
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Weymouth New Testament
"Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.

World English Bible
"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Young's Literal Translation
'Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;

[/quote]

Hebrews 10:9: "he taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth."
Hebrews 8:7: "For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second."

The Old Covenant is no longer a valid means of salvation. The New Covenant being establish annuls the old. Baptism and the confession of the true faith which worketh through charity and submission to the Roman pontiff is the only valid means of salvation.

This idea that there is a means of salvation other than the Sacrament of Baptism and confessing the Catholic faith: whole and inviolate, is an idea that is masonic through and through. Why God permits the Church to suffer at the hands of a hierarchy that is day by day slowly moving futher and futher from the truth I don't know. It isn't for me to know. Wait on the Lord is all I can do in the meantime.


#6

[quote="amDg0815, post:5, topic:295036"]
Hebrews 10:9: "he taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth."
Hebrews 8:7: "For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second."

The Old Covenant is no longer a valid means of salvation. The New Covenant being establish annuls the old. Baptism and the confession of the true faith which worketh through charity and submission to the Roman pontiff is the only valid means of salvation.

[/quote]

It's not quite that simple.
Abraham was saved before works... St. Paul says.
Submission, is perhaps, the only certain means of salvation... if there is such a thing...

This idea that there is a means of salvation other than the Sacrament of Baptism and confessing the Catholic faith: whole and inviolate, is an idea that is masonic through and through. Why God permits the Church to suffer at the hands of a hierarchy that is day by day slowly moving futher and futher from the truth I don't know. It isn't for me to know. Wait on the Lord is all I can do in the meantime.

What the CCC says, and how it phrases it are problematic.
But -- you are under the binding authority of the Vatican II pastoral (not oecumenical) council; unless you are not a Latin Rite Catholic or one in full communion with Rome.

In the Vatican document, salvation is spoken of for three religions; Chirstian, Moslem, and Jewish. Their relationship to the Catholic church is not always strict obedience and baptism. None the less, if you are obedient to the pope -- whom ratified this council -- you are not allowed to go against it, based on infallibility (at least publicly).

I would counsel patience; Clarification is sure to come, but it may not happen soon -- or even in our lifetime. The wheels of justice turn slowly, but the wheels of the church make secular courts look like a race-car.

:blush:

I share your frustration; my friend.
--Andrew.


#7

[quote="a83192, post:1, topic:295036"]
This quote from the CCC baffles me. When I was growing up I was always told that Jesus revoked the old covenant at his crucifixion. It does not make sense as to how 2 separate covenants can exist. I don't understand this paragraph.

===========================================================

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

[/quote]

He did NOT revoke the old covenant... He fulfilled it. There is quite a difference, in that the NEW Covenant is a fulfillment of the old... everything that came in the old was a sign of that which was to come in the new... such as:

Circumcision -> Baptism
Passover -> the final Passover/the Eucharist
Elijah -> Jesus
Eve -> Mary
The Ark of the Covenant -> Mary's Womb
David -> Christ
Elijah's feeding of the crowd -> Christ's feeding of the multitudes
Elijah eating the Manna -> Christ as the "Bread (manna) from Heaven"
The Steward in the Kingdom of Israel -> The papacy in the Kingdom of God

We are a church which is VERY MUCH connected to our roots in the old covenant and Judaism!


#8

Love is the law of the new covenant, and it contains the entirety of the old covenant.

**For the whole lawk is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.* (Galatians 5:14)*

If you love perfectly, you satisfy both old and new covenants.

-Tim-


#9

"And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures." (Lk 24:44, 45)


#10

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