Scripture says church is real on earth and not just a binding concept


#1

I was at Mass this morning and I heard that if a person needs correction then it sould be given. And if they do not listen to that correction, then two or three more should come and present him that correction. And if he dosen’t listen to them, then the CHURCH should be summoned to correct him.

The reason this struck me was that some christians say that where two are three are gathered, there is the church. But this passage from Mathew says that the church is more than just two or three.

I’ve never heard this offered as an appollogetic to those who don’t see the distinction between two or three and the CHURCH. The church in this passage seems to say that there is a very real distinction and that there definitely is a church. And it isn’t called a temple but a church.

What cha ya think?


#2

I remember reading some things a long time ago that suggested this topic was one of the last ‘secrets’ of Fatima, in theory they thought the Vatican was withholding this information about what ‘a church’ actually meant because if people knew it didnt have to be a physical building or place, and that the church was actually inside each one of us, it would somehow ruin the institution, members would significantly decrease, much less money coming in, much less control, etc etc.

I dont believe that, but they did put up a good argument. I also recall hearing if 2 or more people were gathered in one place praying, God was present, same as being in a church building packed with hundreds of people.


#3

Another great passage is when Jesus is teaching about reconciling with our brother. He mentions that before you offer sacrifice on the altar, go reconcile first, and then offer sacrifice.

What people miss in that passage is that the altar is a REAL place. The Church has to be a real place because it has to have altars.


#4

What is the sacrifice we need to offer?


#5

Jesus doesn’t spell it out, but it can consist of the bread and wine used in Mass, or it can be the financial support for the Church (which is why the collection basket is received by the priest and placed near the altar).


#6

I might miss my guess, but Jesus was talking about the sacrifice in the Old Testament which had priests and an altar in the temple. And the people would bring sacrifices to be made by the priest on that altar.

However it would also apply to the altars today.


#7

But the church is the body of Christ on earth including both priests and people, and issuing both ideas of faith and morals and spiritual thoughts which would include more than just two or three people.


#8

A perfect example of not believing everything you read.


#9

The priest offers the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Not like he’s dying all over again which is what protestants accuse us of. Jesus died 2,000 years ago but his sacrifice goes through all time, as if he died at that moment, it’s like being there at the cross 2,000 years ago. The church calls it the bloodless sacrifice.

To that sacrifice we add our own sacrifices; our toil, our works of mercy, our prayers, our own selves.

See CCC no. 1368.

Also, very beautiful, is when water is added to the wine cup just before consecration. The blood represents Christ - the water represents US.

God bless you
Fran


#10

It would have originally been understood that way, but Jesus wasn’t giving the teaching to only apply to the Old Covenant. He intended for their to be an altar in the New Covenant as well, and there is!


#11

That isn’t in the Bible.

It says “I am in their midst” not “there is the Church.”

It is one of the most misquoted verses in the Bible.

-Tim-


#12

Mt 18:15
Jesus said to his disciples: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”


#13

Who are “some christians” that you mention?


#14

Marcus Grodi mentioned on EWTN that when he was a minister, he thought that where two or three are gathered together in Jesus name, there is the church.

I have also read this in other places as well, that other Christians take this to mean the church as well.

What this indicates is that you may have a church anywhere there are two or three gathered in his name, and consequently they too would make themselves having the authority of the church. So from this, it could be said that a church can be found where two are three are gathered together in his name.

Many Protestants believe in this concept and therefore vote on what they are going to believe and not believe since they consider themselves “the church”. Which then leads to divisions in their Christian communities.


#15

=fred conty;13193411]I was at Mass this morning and I heard that if a person needs correction then it sould be given. And if they do not listen to that correction, then two or three more should come and present him that correction. And if he dosen’t listen to them, then the CHURCH should be summoned to correct him.

The reason this struck me was that some christians say that where two are three are gathered, there is the church. But this passage from Mathew says that the church is more than just two or three.

I’ve never heard this offered as an appollogetic to those who don’t see the distinction between two or three and the CHURCH. The church in this passage seems to say that there is a very real distinction and that there definitely is a church. And it isn’t called a temple but a church.

What cha ya think?

In my humble opinion neither point merits a lot of discussion. WHY?

For all of human history there has [biblically provable] been:

Just One True God

Who HAS and has always HAD without any exceptions; just ONE True set of Faith beliefs and NEVER even ONE time tolerated any more than that.

And following His Own OT example of just One Chosen people; choose too and DID establish Only One Church

READ Mt. 16: 15-19 and take careful note of the single tense …THEE,; I, MY, Church

Then READ Mt. 10:1-8 and compare it to Mt. 28l 16-20 and DISCOVER that Jesus commands both directly [precisely]** and exclusively** ONLY the Apostles and their Successors to TEACH HIS FAITH; guided and protected by HIM! [John17:17-20]:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Pat Miron


#16

Also remember in 2 Timothy, I believe it’s 3:15, Paul says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth.

That’s where the question arises, which Church? Because theirs a lot of Christian churches. Who is correct? Of course we believe and acknowledge that it’s the Catholic Church, but some people don’t see that.


#17

=chero23;13201031]Also remember in 2 Timothy, I believe it’s 3:15, Paul says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth.

That’s where the question arises, which Church? Because theirs a lot of Christian churches. Who is correct? Of course we believe and acknowledge that it’s the Catholic Church, but some people don’t see that.

In responding to “which church”? The bible is very clear:)

God; both Yahweh and Jesus taught with utter clarity and without even One exception that there is in TRUTH [always singular per defined issue… Pope Benedict taught: “THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THERE WOULD BE NO TRUTH” amen!

One true God

Only One true set of faith believes

Only One Chosen people / and one true Church [today’s Catholic Church]

Here then is the short road of evidience proving all of the above:

Mt. 10: 1-8
Mt. 16: 15-19
John 17:11-26
Mk.16: 14-15
Mt. 28: 16-20

Be particularly attentive to the single tence words selected by our Perfect God.

Then consider that the Bible IS a Catholic BooK: it was the Early Church Fathers [Catholics ALL] who guided by the HS selected the 47 OT books; then it was the Realy Fathers [Catholics ALL] who authored the entire NT.

The Bible we have today was FULLY written by the end of the 1st Century or very early 2nd century. THIS MEANS that every time the bible speaks of “church” or “churches” it was in EVERY case referencing “Catholic Churches”.:slight_smile:

**HOW can we know this?:shrug:

Because from the time of the Last Supper and for just short of 1,000 years following that event; THE ONLY “CHURCH” TO EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD was the first Catholic Churches" as NO OTHER Christian faiths existed**!:thumbsup:

And YES, all of this in both historically and bionically provable:)

God Bless you!

Patrick


#18

Just curious. Why did you include Mathew 10:1-8 with your other scripture passages?
Here Jesus tells the apostles not to go to the gentiles or to Samaria but in the other passages He tells them to go unto all the world or to all the nations.

God bless


#19

Thanks fpr asking:

Mt 10:1-8 makes these extremely important points

  1. Jesus actually transfers to his Apostles some of His Godly Powers … then in John 17:18 and again in John 20:21 Jesus [God] proclaims that He [God} is cf. SENDING THEM “as the Father has sent Me.” Meaning with a share of HIS GODLY Powers and Authority" :thumbsup:

  2. The Apostles are named

  3. Matthew points out and actually articulates that “FIRST heir was Peter”

  4. Jesus instructs THEM to teach His salvation message BUT ONLY DO to the house if Israel … Then look at Mt. 28:19-20 where THAT MANDATE is overridden: cf. Go YOU! to the ENTIRE WORLD… thus requiring Papal and Apostolic Succession

So this then in four references biblicslly proves:
One God

One set and only One set of Faith believes [Hebrew 6:4-10 is another GERTA proof]

One and only One TRUE God protected Church:)

Again, thanks for asking,

God Bless you,

Patrick


#20

Interesting. I love studying the bible. Nice how you put the thoughts together.

Thanks!

God bless you
Fran

P.S. Your above statement in no. 4:
Then look at Mt. 28:19-20 where THAT MANDATE is overridden: cf. Go YOU! to the ENTIRE WORLD…
reminds me of Mathew 22:1-14 The Wedding Banquet.
–Those originally invited did not go to the wedding feast, so the servants of the king were sent to the streets to invite all who would come, both good and bad –
But warning: You had to be properly dressed! Thanks again.


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