scripture vs. tradition?


#1

Catholic catechism paragraph 82 Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
Yet
Jesus warned us against tradition Mark 7:1-13

This is a tough one for a protestant to wrap their arms around.


#2

Which traditions did he warn us about?

*** You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things***. (Mark 7:13).

Jesus is chastising the traditions that separate us from God. How else can you rectify this statement with Paul’s in 2 Thess. 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Notworthy


#3

The manner in which I was asking, more pertained to verse 8 and how it may be relating to exodus 20 verses 4-5


#4

“You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition.” If Sacred Tradition disregarded God’s Commandment, then I’d agree with you. But which of our Sacred Traditions disregard the Word of God. Remember the Word of God is both written and oral.

Exodus 20:4-5: you shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation.

Where do we worship idols? Are you questioning our making statues or worshipping them?

Notworthy


#5

bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not? The promises of the rosary is proobably the most blasphemous of them all, and by the way why is that not your 2nd commandment like it is jewish and protestant I think its because of all your statues etc. Maybe I’m wrong. Just trying to learn.


#6

You are trying to learn or you are trying to judge? It’s sort of hard to tell from all of the threads you’ve started.

It’s funny you mentioned the Protestant and the Jewish Bible that way. Are you implying that your Bible comes from the Jewish Scriptures and not from the Catholic?

Bowing to statues is not worship. Do we worship kings and queens? Do Japanese worship each other? I always thought it was a sign of respect. Silly me.

From Fr. Michael Wensing, " Was the prohibition of images in worship of Yahweh also a prohibition of any and all artistic images of other realities in the world or in places of worship? Obviously not. Moses ordered the making of the cherubim statues to flank the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. Moses even had a bronze serpent fashioned in the desert for the healing of those bitten by serpents. The first commandment shows us that we are not to make an image of God or of other gods before God or in his presence (except the one image God himself fashioned: man and woman. We are the images of God who go before him in prayer and worship, because God has made us and called us. Thus we see the awesome dignity of the human person and each human life that God has created.)."

Notworthy


#7

[quote=myfavoritmartin]bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not? The promises of the rosary is proobably the most blasphemous of them all, and by the way why is that not your 2nd commandment like it is jewish and protestant I think its because of all your statues etc. Maybe I’m wrong. Just trying to learn.
[/quote]

No you’re not trying to learn. You’re even calling us names already. You don’t want to learn. You want to attack.

The moderators will be keeping an eye on you. If you don’t change the tone of your posts, you have it coming.


#8

Examples of Jesus’ and the Apostles’ Reliance on Oral Tradition

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses’ seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the “beloved disciple” is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - “awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light.”

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael’s dispute with satan over Moses’ body. This is not found in the Old Testament. Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch’s prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

There is a lot more on tradition here:

scripturecatholic.com


#9

[quote=myfavoritmartin]bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not?
[/quote]

It must infuriate you to see the Japanese bowing at each other all the time. I mean, the nerve of them to worship each other as gods!!!


#10

[quote=myfavoritmartin]bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not?
[/quote]

No, it is not. The statue is not being worshipped. Are you worshipping the Bible when you kneel with it in your hands?

The promises of the rosary is proobably the most blasphemous of them all

What is blasphemous about the meditation on the life of Jesus?
It sounds like you do not actually know what praying the Rosary is. Here is a good start:

deoomnisgloria.com/archives/2004/05/what_is_the_ros.html


#11

would someone please share the promises of the rosary with me?
Also, to person above who wished to indicate that I was judging, It is not for me to judge rather to witness and help share the word of the lord, just as all of you are doing.


#12

[quote=myfavoritmartin]Catholic catechism paragraph 82 Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
Yet
Jesus warned us against tradition Mark 7:1-13

This is a tough one for a protestant to wrap their arms around.
[/quote]

A careful reading of the scriptures reveals that Jesus was not warning against tradition as much as he was insisting that tradition whould always begin with keeping the greater commandments.

From Matthew chapter 23:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others.” Jesus did not say hear or anywhere else that traditions should be abandoned. It is certainly true that people lose perspective, people in the Catholic Church, other churches and people that don’t go to church at all. The love of God is what matters most. Not the love of Tradition nor the love of Scripture. Both are powerful forces that can help keep us pointed towards God but neither was ever intended to be our primary focus. peace Jim


#13

Thanks Jim
well said.


#14

[quote=myfavoritmartin]would someone please share the promises of the rosary with me?
Also, to person above who wished to indicate that I was judging, It is not for me to judge rather to witness and help share the word of the lord, just as all of you are doing.
[/quote]

I attempted to answer your question in my own poor words here. It’s too long a topic to discuss here, nor do we want to take this thread off your original topic. Yes? :slight_smile:


#15

[quote=myfavoritmartin]Catholic catechism paragraph 82 Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
Yet
Jesus warned us against tradition Mark 7:1-13

This is a tough one for a protestant to wrap their arms around.
[/quote]

For this to make any sense you’ll need some history and I am by no means an expert… The (very) short of it is this: before New Testament scripture was written down it was transmitted by spoken word; what we call Sacred Tradition, the spoken word eventually became written down. Those writings: Gospels, letters & Revelations were collected along with Old Testament scriptures into one volume - the bible (bible meaning the books). The cannon of the bible was established in the year 397.

The New Testament finds it’s origin in Sacred Tradition so to say that Sacred Traditon is invalid is to say the New Testament is invalid. This is why “Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”


#16

[quote=myfavoritmartin]bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not?
[/quote]

Nope. God dosen’t have a problem with “graven images”; He has a problem with them being worshiped. That’s why He describes Himself as a jealous God; because worship belongs to Him alone. You ought to check out God’s instructions for building the temple - God is quite the interior decorator…

You should be careful not to make conclusions based on only what you see. If you had lived 2000 years ago, traveling through Jerusalem and passing by Golgatha; you’d see the state execution of three criminals. Relying on appearances alone then you’d conclude that Jesus was just another criminal and enemy of Rome.

[quote=myfavoritmartin]Just trying to learn.
[/quote]

Excellent, but remember: context, context, context!


#17

[quote=myfavoritmartin]would someone please share the promises of the rosary with me?
Also, to person above who wished to indicate that I was judging, It is not for me to judge rather to witness and help share the word of the lord, just as all of you are doing.
[/quote]

I’m only going by your previous post on this same thread:

[quote=myfavoritmartin]The promises of the rosary is proobably the most blasphemous of them all, and by the way why is that not your 2nd commandment like it is jewish and protestant I think its because of all your statues etc. Maybe I’m wrong. Just trying to learn.
[/quote]

This sounds like someone who is judging, instead of trying to learn.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Notworthy


#18

[quote=myfavoritmartin]would someone please share the promises of the rosary with me?
Also, to person above who wished to indicate that I was judging, It is not for me to judge rather to witness and help share the word of the lord, just as all of you are doing.
[/quote]

It would be easier for you to share with us how you see them as blasphemous. Anyway here they are:

[list=1]
*]To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.
*]Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.
*]The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.
*]The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
*]Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.
*]Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.
*]Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
*]Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.
*]I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.
*]True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.
*]What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.
*]To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.
*]I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.
*]Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.
*]Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.
[/list]Ken


#19

[quote=myfavoritmartin] by the way why is that not your 2nd commandment like it is jewish and protestant I think its because of all your statues etc. Maybe I’m wrong. Just trying to learn.
[/quote]

I don’t understand why Protestants continue to propagate this misinformation.

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066).


#20

[quote=myfavoritmartin]bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not?
[/quote]

No. This has been answered so many times. Are you worshipping your bed when you kneel before it and pray? Are you worshipping the Bible when you kneel with it in your hands or bow your head in prayer?

This accusation of idolatry because Catholics have statues and other religious images is bemusing. Protestants make religious images, too. “Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or ‘fish emblem.’”

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp


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