**IMMEDIATE DISCLAIMER!!! ** I DO NOT, NEVER HAVE or DO NOT EVER INTEND on subscribing to the Rapture theory, Dispensationalism, or Millennarianism! I am simply gathering information for an apologetics presentation I am giving. THANK YOU.
When those who hold “Rapture theology” say that they beleive there is going to be a secret Rapture of all believers, what do they base this upon? Why must it be a *secret *Rapture, and where do they supposedly find this in the Bible? Thanks.
Thanks GG - I know where the doctrine of the Rapture itself originates. What I’m trying to find out is the Dispensationalist rationale for that rapture being a secret, silent one, as they often say it will be. One sure can’t get that from 1 Thes 4:13-17 with all that shouting and trumpet sounding going on!
Being a ex-[pre]rapture supporter, there is nothing secret about the rapture. I am not even sure why some called it that.
You see, a rapture supporter sees the Second Coming as occurring in two phases. Phase 1 will be when Christ takes His faithful to Heaven; all this happened before the Tribulation. Phase 2 is when He comes again to judge the wicked, etc.
The Rapture will be silent because they will not be any “clues” for the Rapture. It will just happened. The Rapture supporter sees passages like Matthew 24:29-30 as referring to the phrase two of the Second Coming because Jesus specifically list in details what will occur before He will come, while He mention later that no one will know the hour the Son will come (24:42).
According to their minds, the only way Jesus’ teaching of His unexpected time be true is to have phrase one happened and then phrase two. If the Rapture occur after the tribulation, then it will not make sense because Jesus specifically give what will happened before He comes. This is why many believe the Rapture happened before the Tribulation.
You are starting at the wrong question. You first need to ask “Why Israel?” I say this because before the wedding with the bridegroom, the bridegroom comes to steal his bride away, like a thief in the night to take his bride to his Fathers house, where he has prepared a mansion, or chamber for himself and his bride. John used the wedding traditions of his time in the Gospel of John. The friend of the bridegroom would wait outside the chamber to wait for the bridegroom to announce to him that the two have become one. John3:29
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegrooms voice.
The blessed hope of the church is to always be prepared and ready, for our bridegroom could and will come for us at any moment, even while we sleep. We understand that nothing has to happen before he comes. And this is not for the living only, but first all who are dead in Chirst, and then those alive who remain will be lifted up, and the church. And when this happens, for the first time, in its entirity, the bride, the church will be with the Lord and will go to be with him forever.
But we also know all of the prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel under the second coming of Messiah. That is the future restoration of the Kingdom to Israel as the disciples believed (Acts 1:6), as Peter affirmed (Acts 3:19-26) and as Christ acknowledged (Acts 1:6-7).
Then there are the prophecies concerning the punishing of all nations for how they treated Israel. Jesus’ prophecy revealed in Revelation reads like so. The wedding, the coming, the bounding of satan, the reign in the Kingdom-foretold in Kingdom prophecy in the OT, in which it was revealed to John that it would be a 1000 years. But before the wedding began, he went to recieve his bride.
You believe the church is Israel, and all propheciesin the OT pertaining to Israel is to be viewed as the Church. So when you read prophecies like Ezekiel 36, and say this is the church, look at how it reads Fidelis. That God will disperse Israel(Church) among the nations, and that Israel(Church) will profane his name among the nations, but not because of them, but because of His Holy Name he will gather from all nations and bring Israel(Church) back into the land , never to be removed again. Then after God tells Israel(Church) this, he says to them "Be ashamed and disgraced, O House of Israel(Church)."
It doesn’t make sense!
So, start at point “A” before trying to start at point “R”. Israel will be restored here on earth and Messiah will reign from there, and that will be his Kingdom in his world. For like Jesus said, his Kingdom is not of this world, this present world that is. We, that is all mankind, has made this present world the way it is now.
Thanks for taking the trouble to type all this, but it unfortunately has NOTHING to do with the question I am asking which simply and solely is:
When those who hold “Rapture theology” say that they beleive there is going to be a secret Rapture of all believers, what do they base this upon? Why must it be a secret Rapture, and where do they supposedly find this in the Bible? Thanks.
Like I said, I don’t need an explanation of Rapture theology, I’m just asking about this one aspect.
*]The passage that is most frequently used to substantiate a secret rapture and unbelievers being left behind is Luke 17:31-37, which speaks of “two in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.” It is perfectly true that this passage teaches that unbelievers will be left behind. But there is nothing here to indicate the imaginative dispensational scenario of the one being taken away secretly. Comparing Scripture with Scripture we must conclude that those left behind are left behind to suffer judgment. II Thess. 1:3-10 speaks of the Lord Jesus “in flaming fire taking vengeance” when he is revealed from heaven. Unbelievers will not be left behind to go through a seven year tribulation and have a second chance to accept the Lord during that time. This idea of a second chance is emphasized again and again in Left Behind, and yet this is an idea which is foreign to Scripture.[/LIST]http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/Not_So_Secret.html
The Scofield Bible would tell you more, as would the works of Charles Ryrie, Arno Gaebelein, and others. Ryrie is one of the chief sources. I’ll look out some more names for you
Matt 24:37-42 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
I think it has everything to do what you are asking. First off, you knew what answer you were looking for before you even started this thread. Its obvious this is another cute snicker at the idea that Jesus will call his bride together to meet with him to prepare for the wedding of the Lamb. This will happen before the great tribulation. I dont think it will be silent. And it will be secret, or unknown to the world because they made Jesus unknown to them. And it would be nice that rapture debunkers mention more often that the dead in Christ that will rise first. This too will be unknown, or “secret” to the world.
But the good news for the world is after the church is taken up, God uses his remnant of Israel to give the world the testimony of the Messiah coming to judge and rule from Israel. Jesus revealed in Revelation this Kingdom of his will be a 1000 years.
Now this is where your hangup is because you do not believe leading up to Jesus’ second coming, Israel will be in so much distress, that they will all finally turn back to their God. Israel, without listening to their God, will agree to the A/C’s false peace deal. Israel tries to deal with their own sin, their own way and not the way their God provided. Israel will try to defend itself from all the nations trying to destroy them, and it will be only successful when they stop doing things for themselves and call on the name of the Lord.
Anyways, you want one verse scripture prooftext for a “secret” rapture, when I’m telling you it is much bigger than one verse. To even begin to debunk the pre-trib rapture, you must prove to me why God will not fulfill his promises to Israel under Messiah here on earth.
How can we the church believe in John 3:16 and not believe God will fulfill all he said in his prophecy concerning Israel’s restoration under Messiah?
Again, it’s hard to believe you were really “looking” for inside info from “what one verse in scripture” pre-trib rapture believers use. Why do I mention this? You yourself post numerous links to articles and products teaching against this belief everytime a “rapture” thread is made.
Well, you post “Darby” and"unknown before Darby" in your blog. So to the casual reader, this looks like some recent, kooky idea. But you fail to inform that belief of the rapture of Messiah’s bride is linked to the coming of Messiah to restore Israel, nationally and spiritually, and he will judge all nations for what they did to Israel. Which is prophesied of in scripture over and over, which was foretold aaaLLOOOnnng time ago. You don’t explain that the Kingdom prophesied and promised to Israel under Messiah, which he himself said will be a 1000 years, is not so. But actually the 1000 years is now.