Secular Proof of Bible and Popes Lineage


#1

Hello,

Here are two questions I have been searching for and have had a hard time finding answers. My girlfriends dad is Protestant and I feel he has been greatly influenced by Lorraine Boettners “Roman Catholicism” and therefore has a very skewed vision of history and the Church. So my question is twofold:

  1. Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church?

  2. Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that the Catholic Church can trace its lineage to Peter, the first Pope?

Thanks in advance


#2

[quote="Stephan19, post:1, topic:322843"]
Hello,

Here are two questions I have been searching for and have had a hard time finding answers. My girlfriends dad is Protestant and I feel he has been greatly influenced by Lorraine Boettners "Roman Catholicism" and therefore has a very skewed vision of history and the Church. So my question is twofold:

1) Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church?

2) Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that the Catholic Church can trace its lineage to Peter, the first Pope?

Thanks in advance

[/quote]

The claim usually is that Constantine created the catholic church in the 4th century. which means they agree we have been around at least that long.
The problem for them is that it was the authority of catholic church councils after this point that determined the makeup of the new testament which they accept whether they know it or not. I would definitely point that out to them.

So all you have to do is prove the churches existence, and the primacy of the bishop of Rome before this point. Which is easily done through the writings of the early church Fathers.

The writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch are great. They were written around 100 A.D. so very early. He goes to great lengths establishing that the church is ran by the Bishops who got their authority from the Apostles, also the belief of the real presence in the eucharist. The letter to the Smyrnians I would recommend.

also St. Irenaeus of Lyons in against heresies book three (140-202 A.D.)says

***"It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; "

"by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority," ***he then goes on to name all the popes from Peter to his own time.

Also Justine Martyr is good

Here is the website to read all early church writtings:
earlychristianwritings.com/


#3

[quote="Stephan19, post:1, topic:322843"]
1) Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church?

[/quote]

I can't find it right this second, but Martin Luther admitted that it was the Catholic Church that preserved the Scriptures. He said something to the effect of "if it weren't for Catholics (he probably said romanists or papists or something) we should know nothing of the scriptures," or something like that. Maybe someone else remembers.


#4

=Stephan19;10617301]Hello,

Here are two questions I have been searching for and have had a hard time finding answers. My girlfriends dad is Protestant and I feel he has been greatly influenced by Lorraine Boettners "Roman Catholicism" and therefore has a very skewed vision of history and the Church. So my question is twofold:

1) Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church?

2) Where can I find secular or Protestant proof/research/reports that the Catholic Church can trace its lineage to Peter, the first Pope?

Thanks in advance

Thanks for asking:)

There IS secular historical evidence of both positions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament [a notably anti-catholic site…PJM]

The New Testament is an anthology, a collection of Christian works written in the common Greek language of the first century, at different times by various writers, who were early Jewish disciples of Jesus of Nazareth. In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, generally believed to be in Koine Greek, which was the common language of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Conquests of Alexander the Great (335–323 BC) until the evolution of Byzantine Greek (c. 600). All of the works which would eventually be incorporated into the New Testament would seem to have been written no later than around AD 150.[1]

Historically the NT is proven to have been completed by the end of the First century ro every early in the second century.

The Term “church” was used by Christ to denote:
That He was founding a NEW FAITH [singular]
Pagans would have their Temples
Jews their Synagogues
& Christ followers their “church”

Therefore every mention of “church” refers only to the Catholic Church of today, which alone can prove this fact:
Mt. 10: 1-8
Mt. 16: 17-20
Mt. 18: 16-18
Jn. 14:16-17
Jn.20: 21-22
Mk.16:14-15
Mt. 28:18-20

Are but a few specific and precise proofs of this fact. In each of the above Christ speaks directly to and ONLY to His Apostles from whom Succession is mandated by Christ In the last 2 references above by absolute necessity.

Check out this sites for your other request:

So she’s a Fundamentalist Christian? They claim to accept the bible [yes I’m aware that the reality is selective-acceptance]; but the bible does proof very clearly both positions.

God Bless,
pat/PJM here on CAF


#5

[quote="MarcoPolo, post:3, topic:322843"]
I can't find it right this second, but Martin Luther admitted that it was the Catholic Church that preserved the Scriptures. He said something to the effect of "if it weren't for Catholics (he probably said romanists or papists or something) we should know nothing of the scriptures," or something like that. Maybe someone else remembers.

[/quote]

He said, and I'm paraphrasing a little, " Were it not fore the Papists we would have no knowledge of the New testament. But to the jews was given the old testament."

He said this to justify removing the deutercanon.


#6

Here’s the quote I was thinking of:*Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? Therefore faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them. What business have I, then, to preach against them as a pupil preaching against his teachers? Then there come rushing into my heart thoughts like these: “Now I see that I am in error. Oh, if only I had never started this and had never preached a word! For who dares oppose the church, of which we confess in the Creed: I believe in a holy Christian Church, etc.? Now I find this church in the papacy too. It follows, therefore, that if I condemn this church, I am excommunicated, rejected, and damned by God and all the saints.” [Martin Luther, A.D. 1537; LW 24:304]. (the reference to Luther’s Works is taken from his sermon on John 16)*He’s basically conceding that the world received Scripture from the Church, but he still justifies his opposition to the Church because he believes them to have erred on other matters.


#7

Thanks! This is awesome. I also came across this site: 'http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#tradition_III
which gives a lot of scriptural and early Christian evidence of the Catholic Church being founded and led in Rome and by Peter.

Anything else you have would be great!

God Bless.


#8

=Stephan19;10622034]Thanks! This is awesome. I also came across this site: 'http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#tradition_III
which gives a lot of scriptural and early Christian evidence of the Catholic Church being founded and led in Rome and by Peter.

Anything else you have would be great!

God Bless.

Its a GREAT site and cann be relied on.:thumbsup:


#9

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