Seeking a common ground.


#1

To all CAF Members,

With the recent closure of the thread about "Do Protestant Ministers preached about Mary, I have come to the conclusion that people here both Catholics and Non-Catholics look at the difference.

The intension of the thread was to find a common ground. It was not meant to bring divisions. Do we as Christians, acknowledge that Mary is worthy of honor, because without her fiat, the Word of God would not become flesh?

I would at least like to see Protestant ministers discuss Jesus’ beloved Mother, Mary, and give their prospective. I know most ministers do not preached about Mary, and only mention her during Christmas.

I do think there is a need to bring our Protestant brothers and sisters to be a part of the Christian generation who proudly claim Mary as Blessed, just as she said in her Canticle Prayer.

I seek common grounds, and difference between an ancient Christian faith of Catholicism, and those of the Protestantism.

Anyways, the thread was closed because instead of seeking understanding and bring the brothers and sisters together, it divided us.

We are like little children who argue on things that doesn’t really bring a sense of ecumenicalism.

Did not Jesus at the garden desire us to be One just as the Father and He is One. Are you, my Protestant sisters and brothers a member of My Church since you have been baptized in the Name of the Father, And of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit? The CC recognizes Protestant baptism as long as the form of baptism is used in the Trinitarian formula. So yes, you are a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. I also acknowledge the Orthodox Christians as part of this Mystical Body.

Yet, despite our common beliefs that Jesus is Our Messiah, you let the doctrines of the CC distract you. You may disagree and you can. You have a free will. A gift from God, you should at least try to understand us why we believe our doctrines are professed in the CC.

You cannot change the Catholic Church deposit of faith, and She will not change them. The Church has two natures, human because its members are human and sinners, and divine, because the soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit.

I am not here to argue with you. I only desire for us Christians to seek on the common belief that unites us. If you truly believe you are a Christian than act like it. I see no love in us, we the Anointed Ones of God, and we own God so much, because I tell you my brothers, and sisters, we are a member of His New Covenant.

Some may say, us, Anointed Ones of God? How? Well, Christ means Anointed One in Greek/ Christos. We are called Christians and hence we are anointed in Jesus Christ. Greek word Χριστός (Christós), which literally means “The Anointed One”. We belong to Jesus Christ, so we should at least seek understanding rather than beliefs that divides us. I am sadden by this division, and I weep for all of us.


#2

Do we as Christians, acknowledge that Mary is worthy of honor, because without her fiat, the Word of God would not become flesh?

“Why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should visit me?” Luke 1:43 Indeed, Miriam is most worthy of honor! For she, “the handmaid of the Lord” was lowly, but how “God has exalted the humble”!

I would at least like to see Protestant ministers discuss Jesus’ beloved Mother, Mary, and give their prospective. I know most ministers do not preached about Mary, and only mention her during Christmas.

Her cooperation made a great thing possible. By her submission and willingness, salvation was offered. Let us not take this for granted. Yet it can be said that God beforehand knew his servant’s heart, that she would obey, and for this reason (and many others, of course), was the correct choice, fitting to become the Christ-Child’s mother!

Did not Jesus at the garden desire us to be One just as the Father and He is One. Are you, my Protestant sisters and brothers a member of My Church since you have been baptized in the Name of the Father, And of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit?

“I baptize you in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, my brother in Christ, buried with Christ in baptism, and raised to walk in newness of life …” I think those are typically the words spoken over new Christians at our church. Hmm, my counselor baptised me, and I can’t even recall his words! Ha, ha! I remember being in his arms, being submerged, everyone watching … dying … living …

The Church has two natures, human because its members are human and sinners, and divine, because the soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Your understanding of the nature of the Church is profound! Too few of my Protestant brothers and sisters will admit this. I am somewhat interested in Sophiology, and so I can do no other but agree here! Indeed, our union, brother, is strange … mysterious—glorious!

Anointed Ones of God, and we owe God so much, because I tell you my brothers, and sisters, we are a member of His New Covenant.

Christ was anointed at least a couple times in his life … At his baptism, did not the Spirit descend upon him, and was not his declaration heard? “You are my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.” Another time by a sinful woman, his feet anointed! What servitude! Funny—perplexing, really—that now HE anoints US through baptism and his Spirit, that he would lower himself, totally submitting to the Father’s Will, that he might die in my stead! He has certainly anointed my head, my feet … made me clean. A common ground? Most certainly!

I admire you for your attempt to unify, as Christ would have it. “Be of one mind …” “Do not let there be any divisions among you.” “I pray that they would be one, just as we are one.”


#3

Hi
Mary was dedicated to the service of GodAllahYHWH, though she had to suffer a lot for truth, she did never waiver. She set an example of perseverence, and that is the reason she was chosen from the women of the era to give birth to the last ProphetMessenger of the House of Israel i.e., JesusYeshuaIssa, that was a great honour indeed. She must be respected by both the Catholics and Protestants, and even other Christians whatever the denominations. I am for that.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#4

I have heard, on our local Christian radio station, 3 different Protestant pastors (programs fed from national links) talk on Mary. One spoke of her in terms of the first Christian disciple, someone we should emulate in her submission and obedience to God’s will. He even quoted the Magnificat. The second spoke of her as an example for Christian mothers on Mothers day. But the third’s entire address was so “Catholic” it made my head spin. He made a firm case for all traditional Christian doctrine about Mary, including the virgin birth and her perpetual virginity (and he had some great things to say about Joseph as well). He went into detail on the historical support among Protestants for these doctrines, noting that only in the last 100 to 150 yrs. have they been questioned. He only balked the last 5 minutes when he denied her Immaculate Conception, a doctrine he obviously understood, because he presented both sides of the theology as it was expressed in the middle ages, by Dun Scotus and Aquinas among others.

the first speaker, by the way, made the point that obviously idolizing Mary would be a sin, but that others should not judge the prayer life and piety of individuals, and what appears to be “idolizing” may be just an expression of affection for the saints.


#5

Christianity Today has published a good article on Mary. christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/december/8.26.html


#6

I know our minister has done a number of sermons on Mary. She is honoured and respected as a model, as are many other biblical personages. Our choir often sings Ave Maria.

However we do not venerate her to the extent that Catholics do. We don’t define dogmas that must be believed. I am not saying that the doctrines may not be true, but I think that late definition of some of them, such as the ImmacuIate Conception, means that even if they are true, they are not required to be believed. Even Thomas Aquinas did not hold the exact view defined by Pope Pius IX. Pius defined Mary free from the taint of original sin from conception, while Aquinas, in Summa Theologica, says she was subject to original sin but was cleansed before birth. I know that Catholics do not intend to worship Mary, but I wonder if all the doctrine and focus on her may not lead some to cross over the line and worship even if they don’t intend to. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. I don’t think that lack of intention would necessarily be an excuse because the Bible does say that sins done in ignorance are still sins.


#7

The Immaculate Conception Doctrine for Catholics at least are required for belief, at least from my understanding. It is required because it was revealed overtime.

The resource for the Immaculate is based in Scripture Luke 1:28 when the Angel Gabriel said onto Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” In the Latin Vulgate it is written as gratia plena.

Furthermore, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person .

The Church did not made this up. It is not a new doctrine. It was a common understanding. Yes, there were some early Church doctors like St. Thomas Aquinas but he was not a Pope and did not have the infallible ability to declare binding. Pope Pius IX did proclaim it ex-cathedra, thereby making it infallible.

The Early Church Fathers also attest to this.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).


#8

The Immaculate Conception Doctrine for Catholics at least are required for belief, at least from my understanding. It is required because it was revealed overtime.

The resource for the Immaculate is based in Scripture Luke 1:28 when the Angel Gabriel said onto Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” In the Latin Vulgate it is written as gratia plena.

Furthermore, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person .

The Church did not made this up. It is not a new doctrine. It was a common understanding. Yes, there were some early Church doctors like St. Thomas Aquinas but he was not a Pope and did not have the infallible ability to declare binding. Pope Pius IX did proclaim it ex-cathedra, thereby making it infallible.

The Early Church Fathers also attest to this.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).


#9

The Immaculate Conception Doctrine for Catholics at least are required for belief, at least from my understanding. It is required because it was revealed overtime.

The resource for the Immaculate is based in Scripture Luke 1:28 when the Angel Gabriel said onto Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” In the Latin Vulgate it is written as gratia plena.

Furthermore, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person .

The Church did not made this up. It is not a new doctrine. It was a common understanding. Yes, there were some early Church doctors like St. Thomas Aquinas but he was not a Pope and did not have the infallible ability to declare binding. Pope Pius IX did proclaim it ex-cathedra, thereby making it infallible.

The Early Church Fathers also attest to this.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).


#10

I do not believe in the immaculate conception because not only is it not found in scripture, it was not necessary. Mary was given grace at the time of her conceiving with Jesus as it is stated by Gabriel. Putting to much into adoration and veneration of Mary takes away from our focus upon who is our ONLY true salvation, Jesus Christ. Besides, scripture never tells us to adore and venerate Mary. Mary is a saint, no more no less.


#11

I always had this great feeling that our respect for Mary is shared by our Muslim cousins. They even have a book in the Koran, the Virgin birth of Jesus is retold. The Muslims even believe in the Immaculate Conception. ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYKRAN.HTM

So I believe that if we ask Mary to intercede in reaching the hearts of those who claim to be good Muslims, they may reach the hearts of the terrorists in turn.
As a saint in heaven, and the Mother of God, I think she wields lots of influence when it comes to miracles.


#12

I understand what you are saying Manny and since Ive come here I find your heart growing completely, Seriously I see your posts tones changing over the past while it is a good thing.

So help us understand this not with out stain. She was let go of original sin from Adam/Eve or overcame it? Or God wiped it away from her with Grace.

It actually bothers me that somehow God would have just made her perfect, I thought it was her life she led before the angel came to her, that God would have been preparing her heart. Her being like “us” not separate made me feel like I could rise above things, as she went through a awful time being pregnant, that most would not understand, but held firm to what she needed to do. And Joseph (who gets forgotton alot) did as well, the struggle is something we cant get. Putting their lives in the hands of God.

Whats that verse though He slay me I will trust Him? Dont know if it fits but I just thought of it. :shrug:

Also, thinking about the whole thing, Elizabeth, think of it wanting a son, finally getting one, only to have his head chopped! Today a mother would be sueing God! Not praising Him.


#13

So far i remembered there’s only once (since i have not being in church for long) my pastor preach about Mary. Telling us how God used Mary, becoz she was pure and obedience…blar…blar…and in our bookstore we are currently selling a book about Mary…


#14

People worry too much about Mary worship. I have never, ever known anyone, or seen anyone, worshipping Mary. Mary is the true channel through which Jesus comes to us. If we have proper devotion to her, then we cannot fall into heresy. Mary always gives us her Son, Jesus, perfectly. She is shy, never building herself up, but always insisting, “Do whatever he tells you.” People worrying about Mary worship are worrying about an impossibility. It may SEEM like Mary worship to one who has been indoctrinated in anti-Christian beliefs, such as certain fundamentalist schemes. I know, because I was so indoctrinated, and it took years, literally years, for me to untrain myself from those insidiously taught falsehoods about Mary and Jesus.


#15

I know I have posted this link before but it is worth posting again. I have made copies of it and share it with my protestant friends. The article I think it is a good place to start common dialogue with non-Catholics to debunk the misconceptions on what Catholics really believe about Mary. What makes it a really good article it is written by a well educated and sincere Southern Baptist whom is well-respected among his peers.

Evangelicals and the Mother of God

by Timothy George


#16

Can we stop telling folks that the are misconceiving Catholic doctrine when they do not believe something within it. I don’t believe for a second that Jesus comes to us through Mary. I don’t believe Mary is a co-redemptrix and I certainly don’t believe Mary is a necessary part of our salvation. I think that Mary is an awesome example of what a christian should be and she is foremost of all the saints in Heaven, but not someone who can perform miracles.


#17

How does Jesus come to us, then?

My Bible tells me that God ordained that Mary bore Jesus into the world. And more! Maybe your Bible doesn’t have that part in it. I see you hold several characteristic Protestant errors, and we do know that the “Reformers” removed many parts of the Bible, so maybe your sect removed the Biblical references to Mary giving birth to our Lord.

I also note that your post has several instances of “I don’t believe” and “I think” and even “I don’t believe for a second.” What makes ronnok20 the world-class theologian who can come to such tremendous conclusions that run contrary to so many great minds of the centuries?


#18

That’s right Jesus didn’t have a mother, he was found under a cabbage leaf, or was it a stork that brought him?

No Mary, no Jesus. Jesus is both Human and Divine, without Mary he would be only Divine and that is a heresy.

Correct, only God can perform miracles, but she can pray for or request them for us. Just like your earthly mother can, but it is up to God to perform them.


#19

Wow that’s the first I’ve heard of Non-Catholics singing “Ave Maria” often.

Hopefully you know what the words mean… :wink: God Bless


#20

I pray the rosary but am not worshipping Mary but through her intersession as unto Jesus which is the way she wants us to love the Lord. Do I always start out prayer with the Hail Mary? no but I may end it with thanks to her for being the blessed Mother she is. I still have my earthly mother living and she is wonderful but am glad I have Mother of my Lord also to pray to. When my earthly mother is gone I will think of her and remember the things she did but I can pray to Mary as the wonderful spiritual model of mother hood as she is blessed of the Lord.

It is different that non-CC are sing AVE because it was so prominent in the traditional in the old days RCC and many people were named Mary or Elizabeth or both. What a specaial name to have, i mentioned in my parish that I woould like us to sing Ave and they thumbed down it and made bad remarks about the marion devotion.:frowning: Ther were 4 Mary’s in our choir and I felt sad for this:o Even the good Catholics would not stand up for even the name Mary which one was a members wife. She was distressed and I learned a lot that day and did not mention it again. I had to leave that group, now I attend another parish and the same some for and some against.

I will continue to carry my rosary and pray as Mary is the Mother of us all.

If you want to find a common ground it should be that all of us probably have a Mary in our life and if it be an aunt or sister, we should not be maocking her name. Venerating means just to give honor to and and I’m sure you would be pleased if someone said something nice about your mother, everyone likes to hear something nice about their mother. Mary always say thanks be to God, whatever is the will of the Lord. Dessert

**
'Be Jesus … Share Jesus’
Blessed Mother Teresa**


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