Senator T Kennedy get a Roman Catholic funeral ??????

Isn’t time for the Roman Catholic Church in Boston, MA to realize that Kennedy believed in the murder of unborn children ? A Catholic Mass ? Smell the coffee ? Obama to enter the holy shrine of Mission Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Help ? The Redemptorists obviously don’t have a problem with this. Their founder ST. Alphonsus Ligouri would be totally appalled. This is all an indication of the mass confusion in the Latin Rite—the Vatican says one thing and the American Catholic Church does what they please.:frowning:

He doesn’t deserve a funeral.

In fact, any Catholic who says he should get a funeral is not Catholic. The reasons being that he flouted Church teaching regarding pro-life issues, and he also was living in adultery with another woman.

Michelle Arnold answered this question in the Apologetics section, and I whole-heartedly agree.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=370672

According to media reports, Senator Kennedy received the last rites of the Church (i.e., confession, anointing of the sick, Communion), which indicates that he made his peace with the Church before he died. Whatever the problems during his life, it seems he chose to die a good Catholic. If that is the case, and we should pray that it is the case, then there is no appaarent reason the Church should deny him a Catholic funeral. Any Catholic who would wish that a fellow sinner be denied the comforts of his religion at death should re-read Matthew 7:2. I also recommend the article linked below.

Recommended reading:

Sinner Come Home by Kristine Franklin

“For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.”

No, actually if you go and read them for yourself, you will see that he was unconscious to make a Confession, and thus apparently did not have the opportunity to do so in those last few hours.

Furthermore, he did not publicly repent of his horrid beliefs and practices (making pro-abortion legislation), which he should have done. He knew the end was coming a year ago. Church law states that those who live in public sin should not have a Catholic funeral. This is what the Church has everywhere and always believed.

May his soul rest in peace.

I believe it is not up to us to judge, HOWEVER, in granting Kennedy a Catholic funeral we leave the church open, once again, to public scrutiny and scorn. Many think ithat Catholics do not really believe what the church teaches. I pray for his soul.

No one is judging his soul.

We only judge actions.

You don’t need to be conscious to receive the sacrament. In fact, you can be physically dead and a priest will still administer the rites, as there’s no precise way to know exactly when the soul leaves the body.

I agree that he wasted a wonderfully merciful gift from the Father - to have more than a year to publicly repent and prepare for this day, and then do nothing but continue to act like a politician up to a week prior to his death.

That said, God’s mercy is infinite. I hope I receive just a drop of it, even though I need an ocean. I pray that Senator Kennedy indeed repented sincerely. Even if he were comatose - we know that comatose subjects have awareness. You shouldn’t dismiss the possibility that he made an interior confession.

Who does deserve any of the sacraments? The grace and forgivness of God is there for every sinner, even me.

Yes it is.

He does not deserve a Catholic funeral because of the public scandal he caused.

Look people, since you don’t understand. One gets a Catholic funeral not by being in a state of grace, but by living and being known as a Catholic in good standing. Kennedy does not qualify. That much is very clear.

May his soul rest in peace.

Whatever the problems during his life, it seems he chose to die a good Catholic

dying a catholic doesn’t mean you were a good catholic. looking at the evidence, he was pretty much on the side of the devil during his long career as a politician. he never made a public confession about his actions, probably because it’s very hard to so; he obviously didn’t think he was in the wrong. this is why the church warns us to not depend on a death bed conversion. usually, habitual sin makes our hearts hardened.

accept that his soul is in God’s infinite mercy and justice, nobody can condemn him except God. but to say he died a good catholic is hard to believe.

isn’t his catholic funeral a scandal to the faithful? money talks, even in the catholic church.

Who do you think you are? Only a bishop can make the determination to deny a Catholic a Catholic funeral and burial service. Either wait and see what the diocese does or write them a letter.

But don’t on your own state who and who does not qualify for Catholic burial. Sheesh!

You might want to review what the Sacraments mean. News reports are saying that he received the Last Rites before dying. If that’s true, Catholics are called to assume that he was forgiven and made right with God. It would be uncharitable – and unChristian – to presume anything else.

As for the idea that he did a lot of bad things in his life, so that should somehow cancel out the Sacraments of the Annointing of the Sick, Reconciliation, and Holy Communion, you might want to check what Scripture says about it:

But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle? They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard. And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny.

And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good? So shall the last be first, and the first last.

Matthew 20:6-16.

Even if his change of heart was on the last day of his life, that’s good enough. If God has accepted him through His Sacraments as administered by His priest, then he’s been reconciled.

I did read them for myself. “Father Patrick Tarrant administered the Last Rites of the Catholic church.”

True – unless he becomes reconciled to the Church before death. Which he did.

I agree. Réquiem ætérnam dona ei Dómine; et lux perpétua lúceat ei. Requiéscat in pace. Anima ejus, et ánimæ ómnium fidélium defunctórum, per misericórdiam Dei requiéscant in pace. Amen.

So make it a teaching moment. Tell people why he’s able to receive a Catholic funeral. Explain the Faith so others will understand it.

As far as denial of a church funeral is concerned, canon law states that notorious heretics and manifest sinners whose church funeral would cause public scandal of the faithful are to be denied an ecclesiastical funeral “Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death.” See Canon 1184. I think we’d all have to agree that receiving the Last Rites constitutes “some sign] of repentance before death” (that is, after all, the very definition of the Sacrament of Reconciliation). That same canon goes on to say that, if any doubt exists about the propriety of an ecclesiastical funeral, the local ordinary is to decide. So it’s up to the bishop, who apparently is on board.

Can. 1184 §1. Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death, the following must be deprived of ecclesiastical funerals:

1/ notorious apostates, heretics, and schismatics;

2/ those who chose the cremation of their bodies for reasons contrary to Christian faith;

3/ other manifest sinners who cannot be granted ecclesiastical funerals without public scandal of the faithful.

§2. If any doubt occurs, the local ordinary is to be consulted, and his judgment must be followed.

He was reconciled to the Church and with God. He has a canonical right to a Catholic funeral.

Sorry; you don’t understand. Canon law is clear. He could be denied a Church funeral “unless [he] gave some signs of repentance before death” – which he did. You’re simply wrong about having to “live and be known as a Catholic in good standing” (whatever that is) to get a Catholic funeral; read Matthew 20:6-16 (quoted above).

Money has nothing to do with it. He has the right to an ecclesiastical funeral. So please don’t go around slandering the Church. It’s not right.

He’s not required to make a public confession, and neither is any other Catholic. If he made confession privately, it’s none of our business.

And you have no idea whether he saw a priest privately before that.

This conversation makes me very sad. How dare anyone here say such things, it’s not our job. God knows his heart, God knows if he confessed, and it’s not our right to judge, no matter who it is.

This is why I left the Baptist church in the first place. :confused:

Seems to me that Sen Kennedy is not the problem…(May He rest in peace and be delivered into the Eternal Kingdom with all the angels and saints). The problem in my view:

(1) it is the lack of concrete actions (words are only a first step…) taken by the bishops (esp. each bishop for the souls that he shepherds…the souls which he is responsible for to Our Lord Jesus) in his own particular Church/diocese–USCCB sounds great but has no canonical jurisdiction or power over a diocese… The problem is also fostered by most all of the pastors/priests in the “Sunday pulpits”…but first and last…it is the bishop’s failure in his fundamental responsibility to Our Lord Jesus.

(2) it is also the 54% of Catholics who voted for President Obama…to say nothing of the fading but once predominantly Catholic population of Massachusetts (see quote below) that has elected Sen Kennedy overwhelmingly …2006 he got 70% of the votes. Look at the strained at best…and…twisted at worse…logic of Prof Kmiec…(Ambassador-designate to Malta) to say a faithful Catholic could support then-candidate Obama. All of this clearly demonstrates that by the unspoken words and the lack of any explicit actions…by the Principal Shepard of our souls…the protectors/defenders and teachers of the apostolic faith of the Catholic Church…our individual bishops (not the USCCB–which gives a protective smokescreen for the bishops to sit on their spiritual “arss”)…that Sen Kennedy can really…I mean really, really support abortion/culture of death issues…either directly by voting as a legislator for their use/implementation…or either by voting for those government officials (executive, legislative and ,judicial candidates) who clearly as Catholics…always strongly and adamantly support abortion/culture of death issues. Both the Senator, you and me can do the same…it is not a real issue/problem…because our bishop and our pastor have not made it is a serious problem with consequences in our life as a Catholic.

Number of N.E. Catholics tumbles

Study finds ethnic, geographic transformation

The American Religious Identification Survey, a national study being released today by Trinity College in Hartford, finds that the** Catholic population of New England fell by more than 1 million in the past two decades,** even while the overall population of the region was growing.

In Massachusetts, the decline is particularly striking - in 1990, Catholics made up a majority of the state, with 54 percent of the residents, but in 2008, the Catholic****39 percent. At the same time, the percentage of the state’s residents who say they have no religious affiliation rose sharply, from 8 percent to 22 percent.
boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/03/09/number_of_ne_catholics_tumbles/

  1. Could it be any clearer than the Didache which was the apostles’ and apostolic fathers’ of the Church…catechism (end of first century/beginning second century):

Chapter 2 contains** the commandments against** murder, adultery, corrupting boys, sexual promiscuity, theft, magic, sorcery,abortion, infanticide, coveting, perjury, false testimony, speaking evil, holding grudges, being double-minded, not acting as you speak, greed, avarice, hypocrisy, maliciousness, arrogance, plotting evil against neighbors, hate, narcissism and expansions on these generally, with references to the words of Jesus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache#Contents

The consequences of this lack of action by the bishops…is that the Church is being severely pruned…not dying…but being pruned by a machete-like action…and that is my real point…the REALLY GOOD NEWS…we are getting smaller…but more serious about our Catholic faith!

Pax Christi

I think we’d all have to agree that receiving the Last Rites constitutes “some sign] of repentance before death” (that is, after all, the very definition of the Sacrament of Reconciliation)

no we don’t. last rites as far as i know does not equate to a death bed conversion. he had been recieving communion while he was a manifest apostate. so why would anyone expect that he recieved last rights after a good confession. the way you defend this man makes me suspect you are a democrat who voted for obama. is that true? i apologize if i’m wrong.

"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Money has nothing to do with it. He has the right to an ecclesiastical funeral. So please don’t go around slandering the Church. It’s not right.

oh yeah, that’s right, the catholic church is not full of sinners and is always making prudent decisions. thanks for reminding me.

I think he gave a good confession because the priest who heard it says so, and it’s not my place to challenge him.

In the sacrament of penance the faithful who confess their sins to a legitimate minister, are sorry for them, and intend to reform themselves obtain from God through the absolution imparted by the same minister forgiveness for the sins they have committed after baptism and, at the same, time are reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by sinning

CIC Canon 959.

If the confessor has no doubt about the disposition of the penitent, and the penitent seeks absolution, absolution is to be neither refused nor deferred.

CIC Canon 980.

If he was absolved, he was “reconciled with the Church.” None of us can challenge that absolution. And going through the Sacrament of Penance is a “sign of repentance before death” – meaning that he’s entitled to a Catholic funeral.

Now, this happens to be a golden opportunity for the Church to explain all of this, making things clear for the public and explaining the Church’s teaching about abortion, reconciliation, and so forth. I hope it happens.

But a simple “We didn’t like him, so he can’t have a funeral” – even if it’s dressed up with fancy terminology and filled in with detailed explanations – would be unChristian.

Who is the ordinary cleric who can forgive and absolve for the sin of abortion/cooperating with abortion? Does anyone know?

Now, this happens to be a golden opportunity for the Church to explain all of this, making things clear for the public and explaining the Church’s teaching about abortion, reconciliation, and so forth. I hope it happens.

But a simple “We didn’t like him, so he can’t have a funeral” – even if it’s dressed up with fancy terminology and filled in with detailed explanations – would be unChristian.

Well put.

John

Yeah, and we should always assume the worst. :shrug: It’s not up to **us **to assume anything.

Any parish priest can.

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