Separation Of Church and State


#1

**THE NEW SCHOOL PRAYER

This was written by a teen in Bagdad, Arizona. This is incredible!

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That’s no offense; it’s a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God’s name is prohibited by the state.

We’re allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They’ve outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the ‘unwed daddy,’ our Senior King.
It’s “inappropriate” to teach right from wrong,
We’re taught that such “judgments” do not belong.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.

It’s scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school’s a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!

Amen****
What is your stand on separation of church of state? Do you believe it is needed for a democracy? Must the 10 commandments be taken out of court?
I believe it is good but not strict separation. It is good because the government must treat each religion equally. It is to protect the rights of every American. But that’s where it stops. I don’t believe having the 10 commandments in court hurts any one. I don’t thing the word GOD hurts the rights of an atheist. I don’t believe a little boy reading his bible at recess will disturb people. Left wing Groups like the ACLU are turning separation of church and state into total separation]. Which is not what the founding fathers wanted. READ THIS!!!TMyth of separation of church **


#2

[size=3]IMHO the constitution does not support separation of church and state and in fact this actually is the opposite of what the constitution does say. I believe we are heading for the establishment of a state religion of humanism. There are those who do not want freedom OF religion but freedom From religion. [/size]


#3

[quote=D Quintero]This was written by a teen in Bagdad, Arizona. This is incredible!
[/quote]

Of course it’s incredible; it’s been rattling around the Internet since at least 1999. See the link below:

Snopes

John


#4

[quote=John Higgins]Of course it’s incredible; it’s been rattling around the Internet since at least 1999. See the link below:

Snopes

John
[/quote]

Thats where I got it from. I also like this Prayer in Goverment
Real or fake. the prayer reminds me of how bad total separation is.
Too much power in the goverment, it will corrupt religion
no voice in goverment, it will silence religion


#5

Hello All,

We have to tread carefully on this Line. Remember Catholics: This is a primarily Protestant Nation. There are individuals and groups who want the “Babylonian Cult”, A.K.A. Catholicism, banned from the United States. In fact, Catholicism was banned in some of the original colonies. So let’s not run to embrace promotion of religion.

The fact is, the Constitution clearly states a that the Establishment of Religion is forbiddon. The part the secularists forget is that there is also a Free Excercise Clause in the Constitution. It guarantees the Right of citizens to practice their faith in any way they please. It is not seperation of Church and State, but a balance of Church and State. Schools can’t sponser prayer or teach the ten commandments, but students can pray whenever they want and form bible study groups without any interference. Furthermore, it is licit to have Philosophy and Ethics classes, because they do not favor any perticular religion.

I know this seems heretical to some more Conservative individuals, but it is Constitutional. Also, even if Separation of Church and State were true, it does NOT mean Separation of Church and Culture. We Catholics needs to be Fair and Balanced, unlike FOX News. :stuck_out_tongue:


#6

I chose other because separation of Church and State is fiction. There is no such thing in the Constitution. There is a free excersize of religion clause which somehow the left wingnuts have twisted into no one can excersize religion in public.

Of course the Supreme Court doesn’t even believe in the Constitution anymore since they gave away our right to own and keep our property. Now thanks to the Supreme Court cities can confiscate our property and give it to private developers so they can increase their tax revenue. Thank God congress is working on a bill which would nullify this ruling. Let’s hope and pray this bill passes.


#7

[quote=RikasAngel]Hello All,

The fact is, the Constitution clearly states a that the Establishment of Religion is forbiddon.
[/quote]

While I agree that the gov’t is not allowed to establish a state religion, that’s not what the Constitution actually says in the 1st Amendment.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

That clearly says (at least to me) that Congress is not allowed to make any laws against a religion or thr right to exercise your belief. “An establishment of religion” would seem to mean a church, or denomination … an establishment in the sense of an organization or business. Not, i think, in the meaning of the gov’t ‘establishing’ a religion.

Personally, I feel the ban on school prayer and such to be specifically unconstitutional as they are in fact affecting religions and the free exercise thereof.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it specifically say that religion is not allowed in or a part of our gov’t, only that our gov’t is not supposed to interfere with our religion. Which is why I have to vote ‘other’ on this poll, as I don’t believe that what is called “Separation of Church and State” as it is understood today actually exists in our Constitution or even the intentions of the founders of this nation :slight_smile:


#8

“Separation of church and state” is of recent use. It exists only due to judicial diktat. And it is far from absolute. So far.

The proper phrases to use when discussing church/state affairs are “Establishment clause” or "Free exercise clause"issues.

From the Library of Congress:

THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:JEFFERSON AND MADISON


#9

[quote=D Quintero]I don’t thing the word GOD hurts the rights of an atheist.
[/quote]

Of course not. But forcing others to pray, even by peer pressure ony, does.

Church/state separation is a blessing for religious people too. What happens, if the state endorses the wrong church? Consider a US, where fundamentalist protestantism regarding the RCC as a Satanic institution became state religion. You wouldn’t want that, would you? Or some freaked-out Taliban running the country.


#10

Seperation of church and state is not in our constitution and is anti-Catholic. As Catholics we are responsible for the inculturation of our faith into society. Therefore, we must fight for the principles in law and standards. God created everything, gives us life, gives us the air we breath! How on earth can we try to compartmentalize Him…sick!!! How can we DENY Him? Sure we can still respect other faiths and their ignorance of the one true God. That does not mean that we need to reject God, who we believe is the One and Only God!

Love & peace in the only God of Heaven and Earth!

Bob


#11

not that most members of the Supreme Court or most federal judges have ever read it, but the Constitution is silent on the separation of church and state. What the bill of rights does prohibit is the establishment of a state religion, and guarantees freedom of religious practice, expression and profession by all citizens, any time and any place.


#12

Here’s the unrecognized problem right now - Athiesm is a religion, too! By prohibiting any mention of God in all civil forums (school football games, etc.), the state is actually making a law establishing Athiesm!

Consider the current situation: If a teen goes up to his public school teacher and says, “Is the Declaration of Independence correct? Are there “Laws of Nature” and is there a “Nature’s God”?”, currently the teacher is prohibitted by law from responding in the affirmative! A response in the negative would be an endorsement of Athiesm, which is lawful (in my understanding), but violates the teacher’s “free exercise thereof”. The most the teacher can say is, “I don’t know.” If that’s not a state endorsement of Agnosticism/Athiesm, I don’t know what is. Is it any wonder that the number of homeschoolers climbs every year?


#13

Historically “Separation of Church and State” is an idea that has been used to attack Catholicism. It is an “enlightenment” ideal introduced by atheists like Voltaire in the 1700s.

In practice in the hands of anti-clericals in France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Mexico and elsewhere in the 1800s and early 1900s, the term has been used as a cover for

  • Closing monasteries and stealing their lands.
  • Closing Catholic Schools and banning Catholic participation in education.
  • Ditto with catholic Universities and Hospitals.
  • Banning public festivals and displays of religion.
  • Banning Christian symbols and clerical dress.
  • Enforcing atheism as the standard of public life.
  • Abolishing as many Christian Holidays as possible

Communists and Anarchists went even fiurther with the “separation” in Russia and republican Spain, massacring religious and destroying churches and monasteries. Actively preventing people from worshipping.

Of course the modern form of “Separation of Church and State” is not quite so crude, but it is still very dangerous:

  • Banning public religious symbols
  • Banning Christian displays, prayer etc in schools and other places.
  • Clearing out crosses, bibles etc from hospitals, crematoria, public buildings.
  • Denying a specific Christian input into Law and Public Policy.

This is a creeping programme, and the intention is to wipe out the Public face of Christianity, and make Christianity an irrelevant minority, something invisible and strange, done in private and secret.

The NORM for society will be Atheism or vague new-age “spiritualism”.

Is this important?

Yes. Because when Catholicism/Christianity is taken away, what is left is not a vacuum. Other philosophies take up the space. Materialism. Atheism. New-Ageism. we can see that on television and in Films, where the main characters rarely enter a church or apply Christianity to their life-choices.

While Christian images are banned, secular prophets reign supreme in the courts and elsewhere. Abortion, Euthanasia, materialism, encouraging homosexual lifestyles, become the driving policies. Anyone against them is ruthlessly attacked.

Of course i wouldn’t go back to Church and State being one. That is just as corrupting. But the Church needs to demand its place in the mainstream of society, and to be acknowledged for its contribution to society over the years.


#14

techcentralstation.com/070105E.html

This is an interesting article that suggests the original separation of church and state came from Jesus. Remember 'render unto Caeser" which was tribute and taxes. But while you owe money to the state you do not owe it your worship.

It might be a bit difficult for secular liberals who consider separation of church and state to be on par with “separating black socks from white when doing the laundry” to be a religious precept.

Lisa N


#15

In Germany the state collects taxes for the Church. If you want to leave the Church you have to go to a court or public office (depends on the state (Bundesland)). A lot of Church employees are not payed by the Church but by the state, which means by every tax payer.
Seems over here the Church has no problems in utilising Caesar to earn and save money…


#16

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s - give to God what is God’s.

That said, we still need the moral teachings of our Lord to guide our actions. Christ does not want our money - he wants our souls. Yet if we forget God in the governing of our country - then Satan will have our souls.


#17

I chose that “I agree on some separation.” I wouldn’t want to have the Government embrace a protestant church or the Mormon church as the official church of the land, lol. However, to avoid such a thing, we must also put away the possibility of our Church being embraced as the official one. I would be willing to give up that possibility than to have to swallow someone else’s heretical beliefs. I would want prayer in school and public places back. I would also like to hear the name “Jesus Christ” rather than just “God.” I would also like to see tolerance on imploring Mary or other Saints. In other words, I see no problem with saying a prayer over the intercom with just the name of “God” or “Jesus,” for the sake of common ground and peace. However, I would also like them to allow individual students to be able to implore Mary and the Saints.


#18

Thought this article was interesting. The author of this commentary basically blames anti-Catholicism for some of our present day woes pertaining to separation of church and state.

pittsburghcatholic.org/columnists_storys.phtml?id=764


#19

The Establishment Clause means that government will not coerce religion, but that religion can coerce government.


#20

I checked other. I used to believe firmly in the separation of Church and State. As I age (and incidentally become more conservative), I start to wonder. Prayer in public schools? I live in Las Vegas, with a large LDS population. I would not wish my child, if I had one (I’ve a godson, and nieces and nephews), to be exposed to Mormon theology in prayers, any more than I imagine they would want their children exposed to prayer invoking the intercession of the Blessed Mother or any other saint. I also do not like those generic, “to whom it may concern” prayers. We pray to Jesus, through and in and with Jesus, in His Name and for His Sake, to the Holy Trinity of Which He is the Second Person. In the school district where I teach, we have instead 30 seconds of silence. BUT…I’m increasingly worried about the notion that religious ideas have no place in a secular society. Some advocates of separation would take it so far as to claim I should suspend my moral beliefs and values (de facto Catholic beliefs and values, since my conscience is formed by the teachings of the Catholic Church) when entering into the public forum where views are exchanged or voting occurs, as though politics and decision making have no moral dimension whatsoever. This is a dangerous trend, which may have its summation in a situation such as now exists in Canada, where bishops, priests, and other people of faith and conscience can be hauled up or sued for hate speech for adhering to Christian teaching. I also don’t think it’s terribly helpful to cite the “render unto Ceasar” verses. Has anyone ever thought, after reading the verses in context, that as the Pharisees were trying to trap Him, Our Lord just gave what might be regarded as the ultimate snappy comeback? It’s just a question.


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