Serbia captures fugitive wartime leader Karadzic

afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5juCwZRe6uB-Due2DoO7trgsV_xfg

Nice catch. Hopefully, he’ll end up in a little concrete cell and rot there.

mark my words: General Mladic will be behind bars before Autumn.

So the Christian who was killing muslims is brought to justice. Good. But what about the muslims who were killing christians?

jerseygirl: with all due respect, you do not seem to know that facts concerning the Croatian and Bosnian wars. These wars were wars of agressions perpetrated by the JNA army (yugoslav national army) and paramilitary units supported by Serbian leadership in Belgrade. “Ethnic Cleansing” by the serb backed military units resulted in hundreds of thousand deaths and refugees…Croatians and Bosnian muslims were defending their homelands. What Slobedan Milosevic and Karadzic did in Bosnia and Croatia were war crimes on a vast scale. Just google Arkan (a serb paramilitary leader) and you will be sick to your stomach…

I believe you are the one who does not understand. Just read what has been reported about Croatian war crimes. srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/atrocities/Odzak-1.html I am not excusing the crimes of either side. I just agree with jerseygirl12491 that no one seems to be looking for the Muslim terrorist thugs. I many cases the Muslims were just getting payback, not that there is any excuse for war crimes but when you see what the Muslims did to Christians in that area during WW II and up to the present it is somewhat understandable how they want retribution.

I highly doubt the authenticity of this so-called report…it smells of serb propaganda… Numerous references to croats as “Ustasha” is a big red flag. All serb propaganda makes ample reference to this WWII croatian fascist group.

I am not claiming that some croatians and some bosnian muslims did not commit war crimes in the early 90’s. There were isolated cases to be sure. What the key difference is, is that the serbs engaged in a systematic and brutal annihiliation of croat and muslim culture, identity, and its people (ie, ethnic cleansing).

What is often mentioned in serb propaganda is the ethnic cleansing the croats supposedly engaged in toward the end of the croat war, when 10 thousand or so ethnic serbs left the croatian region of Krajina. They were not expelled by point of gun…the serbs packed their belongings and choose to leave their villages prior to the croatian military advance to recapture the region…

I am not saying that those such as Karadzic are justified. I understand that that is repulsive what they did. But it is crazy to assume this is one sided. look up the book Unholy Terror by John Schindler. In it, it’s estimated that the Muslims in Bosnia killed 1300 Christians in the 90s. Others estimate it at 4000. Just because the Christian Serbs were more organized and “systematic” in their murders does not mean that it’s any more evil than what the Muslims did.

I am by no means justifying Karadzic. I agree it’s good he is captured. But everybody forgets the Christians who were also killed. Between '92 and '95, it’s estimated that 1300 Christians were killed in Bosnia by Muslims (The Unholy Terror by John Schindler). Others place this number at 4000. Just because the murders were not as “systematic” does not make them any less evil, and it is amazing that nothing is being done about this. It’s my hope that the dead Serbs will have their murderers brought to justice, just as the dead Muslims now have.

You seem to be assuming that only Serbs have been indicted, tried and/or found guilty by the Tribunal, and that no crimes against Serbs have been taken note of by the Tribunal. Remember many many more Croatian Christians committed such crimes against their Serb Christian brothers in 92-95 than Muslims ever did. At the very least you are making the assumption that no Muslims have been indicted/tried/prosecuted.

Not so at all - see the list of cases and indictments shown on their website at un.org/icty/cases-e/index-e.htm. Not only are many Croatians indicted, at least a few have been successfully tried and convicted. As far as Muslims go, I’d draw your attention at least to this indictment - un.org/icty/indictment/english/had-3ai030926e.htm

Remember too that the Tribunal is, as all international bodies tend to be, grossly underfunded and underresourced for the job it needs to do, and is naturally going to try to get the biggest fish first - the Milosevics, Karadzics and Mladics - where possible, before going for the lesser fry.

The problem is that Islamic appologist always say that Islamic attrocities are isolated when in fact most of the worlds problems today are caused by Islamist.

Now comes the lovely dichotomy…a Christian on trial for atrocities.

John

Before 1992, there was the one country of Yugoslavia, which the Yugoslavian army was defending against the Bosnians and Croatians who were trying to divide the country. There were pictures shown of Yugoslavian soldiers who were horribly mutilated and cut up by Muslim terrorists.
Suppose for example, that a minority group of terrorists in the USA wanted to split the country and have their own separate state and they decided to cut up and mutilate American soldiers. Should not the American army be allowed to defend itself against such an internal terrorism?

The country of ‘Yugoslavia’ was a totally artificial construct. Unlike the States, there is no commonality of language, for example, between the different provinces that made up former Yugoslavia. Heck, Serbs and Croats don’t even use the same alphabet! And many other important cultural differences - religion being among them.

Not to mention that for a good 500 and more years before their artificial joining together after WW1, Serbs, Croats, Slovenes and others had not only been separate countries but frequently actively fighting each other. Before WWI, for example, Croatia and Slovenia were governed by Austro-Hungarian Empire, Serbia had recently installed its own monarchy after freeing itself from Ottoman Rule, which had never extended to Croatia.

Even in WWII, Croatia was occupied by and sided (sadly) with Nazi Germany whereas Serbia allied with Communist Russia.

Imagine a US where Southerners, for example, not only spoke a different language and used a different alphabet, fought (not just once but again and again over the space of centuries) the other states of the US - had been governed by distinct monarchies and colonial powers for centuries, but also sided with opposite sides in WWII - what sort of unified country would you call that?

LilyM, you’re doing a great job :slight_smile:

and I would just like to add an answer to this question:

So the Christian who was killing muslims is brought to justice. Good. But what about the muslims who were killing christians?

Please understand that the war in former Yugoslavia was not a typical Christian - Muslim war. Bosnia has always been a place of different cultures and of people with different backgrounds. The people who were killed in this war were Muslim, and Orthodox (Serbian), and Catholic (Croatian). All the three sides were eachother’s enemies in a way, and sometimes allies (Catholics and Muslims against Serbs).
The very idea of fighting for the idea of “great serbia”, which has no historical or moral or cultural background, is by itself a crime. No need to kill or harm anyone.

To conclude, 2 + 2 in Bosnia almost never equals 4.

p.s.As far as Karadzic is concerned, I don’t believe that he will be convicted for everything he did, but I sure hope that this will be an end to the Republic of Srpska, which is a prize won by the bosnian serbs for killing such a huge number of croatians and muslims. Also, I hope that the UN soldiers from the Netherlands, who allowed the huge massacre of 8 000 muslims, will also be prosecuted.

The fact that two different alphabets are used, does not mean that there are two different languages. Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian are based on the Shtokavian dialect and are mutually intelligible. In fact, it was called the Serbo-Croatian language.
You can also see this with reference to the Romanian language, which is written in the latin script in Romania, but in the former Soviet Moldava, it was written in the cyrillic script. /however, it was the same language regardless.

What if twenty million non-English speaking people in the USA demanded their own country and demanded to be unified under their mother tongue. I don;t think that Washington would like it too much if American soldiers were found tortured and mutilated by terrorists clamoring for separation. On the contrary, there would be a call for the American soldiers to defend the union of the country.

Correct. It is faulty logic that leads one to the conclusion that the terrorist and separatist activities of the Albanians against Yugoslavia were in any way justified.

According to Karadzic, the Serbs were defending themselves against the thousands of Muslims who were attacking them:
"On Srebrenica Karadzic said, “Srebrenica has never been a safe zone. If you don’t trust me, ask former UN Secretary General, Boutros Ghali. He admitted on several occasions that Srebrenica is a Muslim military stronghold and that Serb villages around Srebrenica had continuously been attacked from the enclave. During the last month of the existence of the enclave, every day at least one Serb died in Muslim attacks. All together, 1260 Serbs were killed. UN knows about that. The commander of Dutch peacekeeping troops in Srebrenica also knows that.”

“Nine thousand Muslim soldiers left the enclave and tried to break through our lines towards Tuzla. Three weeks later, they were still fighting around Srebrenica! Nine thousand soldiers is a lot of troops. They pushed towards their lines and our troops followed. They had to break through our fortified lines. The fighting was horrible. At one place 50 our soldiers were killed although they were in trenches. You can guess yourself how many Muslim soldiers died while attacking.”
“They finally managed to break through to Tuzla, but the fighting was horrible. Their officers simply sacrificed their soldiers. A proof is that we didn’t manage to capture any higher and middle ranking officers. On the other hand, the soldiers attacked like ants…In any case, until the fall of the enclave on July 11, 1995, Srebrenica was a military base from which Muslims raided Serb villages, burned and slaughtered the population.”"
For the complete story, please see:
english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/105849-0/

Indeed, but what if Washington and his soldiers proceeded to ‘defend the unity’ of the US by committing atrocities of their own against the separatists that were perhaps every bit as bad or even worse atrocities than those who wanted to separate? By no means are we talking about a one-way street in any of this. War crimes committed against you doesn’t in any way justify you in your turn committing war crimes of your own.

And by no means can you say the Serbs were not repressing the other regions and peoples in different ways well before war broke out. Remember one of the catchcries of the US War of Independence was over unjust taxation, so repression doesn’t have to mean physical violence (although there was plenty of imprisonment and torture of dissidents that occured as well).

Remember too, in your calculations, that the ‘unity’ Washington is purporting to defend never existed except on paper - that these non-English speaking citizens never wanted to be part of the US, and were trying by non-violent (as well as some regrettably violent) means to gain independence basically ever since the US was formed.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.